Evil is cool

[Voadam]

Agreement on that point isn't essential to my point.

But this just opens up another whole can of worms, in that I don't think that the 'pride' in 'take pride in your work' is the same thing as the 'pride' I'm using. Here, we run up on limits in the english language where words for emotions are overloaded. I'd move to Greek, but I don't know the language well enough.

Hubris? Arrogance? Condescension?

No, I wouldn't say that it is. But, if you 'hate' hatred, its a very different sort of thing than hating Bob.

A little different. Sort of the difference between hating the abuse an abuser does and hating an abuser because he abuses you. Hating your abuser does not seem evil to me, it seems a normal, reasonable reaction.

Again, running up on problems with the langauge. Wrath is not just anger, but as wrath is used in two senses in English, I'll have to drop that word as too ambigious.

However, anger at being wronged is evil. Sorry. The sense that 'I've been wronged, therefore I have a right to be angry', has been responsible for more of the world's evil than any other single thing.

Straight disagreement.

Anger doesn't hurt others. Actions taken in anger can hurt people. Going too far when enflamed with anger can be evil but I don't call the emotion evil, I call the going too far part the evil.

So, what would you describe as actual evil?

Actions, not feelings. Emotions are natural reactions. We can control our actions and are responsible for them. Actual torture is evil. A sadist who has a desire to torture but controls himself and does not inflict harm on others is not evil.

 

[Celebrim]

You seem to be denying the existence of such a possible figure - that there cannot exist a well-developed character that isn't a one-dimensional being devoted to either good or evil.

That's funny, because again, I feel like saying the same thing to you.

I think there really is a fundamental disagreement here over the concepts of alignment, so I'm not sure if we'll be able to come to any agreement. You say that an honorable man who considers elves as less than people and will gladly murder elven children in cold blood isn't an evil man. He is simply "a good man who does evil". I'm just not sure where the difference is. For me, a figure that murders innocent is evil. He might have good qualities, but that doesn't make him a good man.

I think you are trapped in your thinking by your 'good is not murdering' and 'evil is murdering' divide into some really one-dimensional characterizations of people and more importantly of good and evil. The one dimensional description you are giving makes it very hard to discuss the subject with you, and I keep feeling like I'm discussing evil at the level of a Hollywood movie or something.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

As someone who refuses to play evil characters, I find this incredibly frustrating. Especially in LFR where you can't simply approach a DM and say, "Look, this feat is awesome and really suits my cleric, but it's for evil only deities, can we fudge something?"

Lucky for you, 4e has no enforceable alignment restrictions. I've heard that Living games are light on the rp side anyway, so you should be free to take your pick of the best "evil" options. And then turn right around to play your Good character without a worry in the world.

 

[Voadam]

Lucky for you, 4e has no enforceable alignment restrictions. I've heard that Living games are light on the rp side anyway, so you should be free to take your pick of the best "evil" options. And then turn right around to play your Good character without a worry in the world.

I seriously doubt "Play an evil cleric of an evil god as if he were good" will work for a player who refuses to play evil characters.

 

[Celebrim]

Hubris? Arrogance? Condescension?

Hubris is actually the Greek I was thinking of, so I think you are getting at what I was saying. Arrogance and Hubris are normally said to be synonyms of 'pride', but we would never say, "take arrogance in your work" or "take hubris in your work". So clearly they are synonyms only of certain senses of the word pride and not in others, and the sense of the word pride in "take pride in your work" isn't necessarily an evil one. Hense, there is actually more than one mental state described by pride.

A little different. Sort of the difference between hating the abuse an abuser does and hating an abuser because he abuses you. Hating your abuser does not seem evil to me, it seems a normal, reasonable reaction.

Normal, yes. Reasonable... ehh... Good, no.

Straight disagreement.

I figured.

Anger doesn't hurt others.

Sure it does.

Actions taken in anger can hurt people. Going too far when enflamed with anger can be evil but I don't call the emotion evil, I call the going too far part the evil.

It's all the same thing. The anger is evil. Once you start digging at it, you realize just how evil it is for you to hold that feeling. The going too far is just the part where the evil kills you.

Actions, not feelings. Emotions are natural reactions.

Natural, yes. Good, not necessarily.

We can control our actions and are responsible for them.

Yes can control our emotions and are responsible for them also.

Actual torture is evil. A sadist who has a desire to torture but controls himself and does not inflict harm on others is not evil.

Sadistic desires are evil whether acted on or not. A sadist who resists his evil impulses is showing that he's not fully depraved, and good for him, but the lack of action doesn't make the thought any less evil.

 

[catsclaw227]

In any case... yes, obviously, throwing around insults or similarly harmless acts....

Harmless??? Harmless??? On such evil is all the evils of the world founded. Throwing around a slander or a hard word is every bit as evil as murdering someone, and quite often slanders and hard words kill. There is nothing at all harmless about wrathful invectives. They are not 'minor evils' that are pardonable while you stand in judgement of someone else.

Now.... see for a lot of this thread you had me agreeing with you.

But, how is insulting someone "every bit as evil as murdering someone"? How are they even remotely close to each other?

Do you believe the following two things equally evil?

1. I am having a disagreement with someone and I say "Dude, you are a f*** a**hole."

2. I am having a disagreement with someone and I stab them in the throat and drain all their blood.

These are NOT equally evil. And I would say that #1 isn't evil at all.

 

[apoptosis]

Sadistic desires are evil whether acted on or not. A sadist who resists his evil impulses is showing that he's not fully depraved, and good for him, but the lack of action doesn't make the thought any less evil.

This is where there is disagreement. Several people (myself included) do not considere sadistic desires as evil but acting on them is the evil part.

I do not think greed is evil, though not controlling it may cause someone to do evil actions. Same with jealousy and pride or even arrogance.

This convesation is more problematic for me as I think evil is a manmade concept to describe behaviors that have been deemed socially unnacceptable. This is caveated with the fact that i believe that aversion to many of these evil acts is evolutionarily hard-wired into us to promote social stability (conversely behaviors that can potentially lead to evil acts like group identification are also somewhat hard-wired into us).

Just out of curiousity, do you think dreams are evil? What about dreams of sadistically killing someone?

 

[Celebrim]

Now.... see for a lot of this thread you had me agreeing with you.

But, how is insulting someone "every bit as evil as murdering someone"? How are they even remotely close to each other?

Do you believe the following two things equally evil?

1. I am having a disagreement with someone and I say "Dude, you are a f*** a**hole."

2. I am having a disagreement with someone and I stab them in the throat and drain all their blood.

These are NOT equally evil. And I would say that #1 isn't evil at all.

There is a very simple answer to your question, but I can't provide it on this forum.

 

[Celebrim]

This is where there is disagreement. Several people (myself included) do not considere sadistic desires as evil but acting on them is the evil part...This convesation is more problematic for me as I think evil is a manmade concept to describe behaviors that have been deemed socially unnacceptable.

Well, then your argument is circular.

And moreover, you should feel a sudden jolt of cognitive dissonance when talking with me then, because I'm using 'evil' to describe not only something that isn't a behavior at all, but which is quite clearly 'socially acceptable' and 'normal'. So either I'm insane or you are (or both).

 

[catsclaw227]

There is a very simple answer to your question, but I can't provide it on this forum.

I am pretty sure we can discuss evil and some of the differences between good and evil and stay within the rules of the forum. Heck, the discussion has doing well so far!

Unless you mean that the reason is based upon religious doctrine. In that case, I understand not discussing it, especially if it is backed by scripture. But can you try?