Evil is cool

Well, then your argument is circular.

And moreover, you should feel a sudden jolt of cognitive dissonance when talking with me then, because I'm using 'evil' to describe not only something that isn't a behavior at all, but which is quite clearly 'socially acceptable' and 'normal'. So either I'm insane or you are (or both).

Let's not get too high on our arguing skills Cel. Your opening counter to me of knit-picking a statement of "consider an under-cover Good cop" wherein I clearly denoted the alignment of the cop as Good. Trying to bleed unintended meaning out of a fairly simple statement that was trying to set a baseline was poor strategy.

You made a better case going over the nature of evil, which was the whole point of the conversation. That half of your counter had elements that gave me something to consider.

My point then, don't get lawyery on people and their debating technique. Figure out their intent and roll with that. Chill. Some people aren't good debaters, and some people don't even have a full opinion and are writing to explore the idea (like myself).


As for apoptosis, I think I'm inclined to agree somewhat with Celebrim. I'm fairly convinced that D&D alignment definitions are based on Good being the standard, and everything else relative to Good.

Thus, in D&D evil exists as it is Not Good. And as I've said before, I don't know what the heck neutral is.

As for thinking evil being evil? In D&D, the answer is probably no, because for PCs, the GM can't see what PCs are thinking. The DM can see what you are doing. Therefore, based on your actions, your alignment is judged (or shift in alignment). As for PCs so it is for NPCs, though it matters less for them, because GMs make them act however they need.
 

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They all give roughly the same types of bonuses and such. Except the two evil ones give a bonus to a skill that's not on the cleric's skill list, which seems slightly more dubious, but hey it's all good :)

Fate - good, evil, unaligned: +1 attack vs. bloodied, +2 insight.
Knowledge - good, evil, unaligned: +1 all defences if you hit, +2 history.
Life - good, evil, unaligned: temp hit points if you hit, +2 heal.
Torment - all evil: combat advantage to first attacker if you hit, +2 intimidate.
Tyranny - all evil: -2 saving throws (even if you miss with the attack), +2 intimidate.
Vengeance - all evil: damage to anyone who attacks if you hit, +2 intimidate.

The balance goes to evil, not only better effects on the evil only ones, but the most powerful one you don't even have to hit for!
 

As for apoptosis, I think I'm inclined to agree somewhat with Celebrim. I'm fairly convinced that D&D alignment definitions are based on Good being the standard, and everything else relative to Good.

Thus, in D&D evil exists as it is Not Good. And as I've said before, I don't know what the heck neutral is.

That doesn't make sense to me for evaluating D&D. If everything not good in D&D were evil there would simply be no neutral or unaligned. Neutral has had a long history of being for animals, balance people, and people between good and evil classifications.
 

Seriously, when did our perspective on evil become reduced to cartoon villainy? Skeletor and Beast-Man are our exemplars?
First time in an alignment thread, I see. ;) Alignment threads have as much a likelihood of producing no agreement as "do dwarven females have beards".

Evil is a very loaded word, especially with regards to PCs.

Besides, I thought this topic was dealing with evil crunch.
 

Whoa! An honest to god alignment war! Haven't seen one of these in, like, a year! They do seem to be getting rarer... and the paladin hasn't been mentioned nearly as often as the days of yore.

4e is doing some things right. ;)

On to the subject at hand - I think part of the reason we see evil characters get support is because most of our heroes these days are actually anti-heroes. People love Wolverine a lot more than Cyclops. We love the terminator, even though we know he could just as easily be the bad guy. And so on, and so forth.

(By the way, this isn't just confined to science-fiction, comic books, and fantasy - even in mainstream literature, there has been a push over the decades towards antihero characters. Or good characters who are unsure of how to pursue morality... if you've read Cormac McCarthy's The Road, for example, there are two ways to think of the father saving the last bullet in his gun as long as his child's with him.... and neither are particularly pleasant).

Point is, feats that are for "good PCs only" go against the anti-hero ideal that our society tends to gravitate towards. It's much easier to make it a general feat, so unaligned PCs can get it. Evil-only feats would probably be better if they were described as "Cannot be of a good alignment". But, ah well.
 

Unless you mean that the reason is based upon religious doctrine. In that case, I understand not discussing it, especially if it is backed by scripture.

Got it in one.

But can you try?

I could, but I'm no where near as elegant, subtle, or authoritative as the text. I'd make a very poor substitute.

The basic idea is that there is really no difference between your thought life, your words, and your actions. They are all various ways you behave in a real sense and the modes and patterns of one inevitably influence the other. Thinking is not not a form of behaving even if it is hidden. So, if you change your actions you'd tend to pull your thoughts with it. If you change your thoughts, you tend to pull your actions with them. They are intrinsicly interconnected as who you are. The way that you entertain thoughts and emotions is who you are.

If you were transparent, if someone could see inside you, the fundamental ugliness or beauty of your thoughts would be revealed. Your actions are merely a reflection of this inner true nature. We don't look into a cup and see manure and slime and say, "The cup is clean.", just because the outside is polished. It is the same way with people. What comes pouring out of them is inevitably what's really inside them.

I should say that its not merely my particular religion that believes this. This is a fairly widespread philosophical belief which you might lump together as the 'spiritual school', and it includes everything from Stoicism to Buddism as well as the tradition I'm pointedly not directly discussing. (Note, I'm not saying that these schools of thought agree on all things, because they don't, but they do agree on this point.) I should also say that while there are a few points of belief where I'd be considered somewhat 'radical', this is not one of them. The idea that thoughts are every bit as evil as actions is about as mainstream and uncontriversial belief as you can get in my religion, so it wouldn't require any high degree of theological learning to track down the basis of this belief if you wanted to.

I'm struggling to communicate here in part because I'm being forced to jump back and forth between Good as D&D describes it, and Good as I see it. In D&D people are 'good' or 'evil'. As I see it, the concept of a literal 'good person' is ridiculous and self-evidently silly. But I'm forced to use the term both because people speak in that way in our consensus culture - 'he is a good person' - and because D&D describes things in that way. But as I use the term 'good person' only means 'relatively less depraved' and 'evil person' only means 'relatively more depraved'. I've discussed elsewhere what I believe alignment to be in this context, and what I suggested is that its not a shorthand for personality or even how someone behaves all the time, but rather for how they tend to behave when under pressure, when stressed, and when they must make a hard choice.

So, someone challenged me when I said that there could be a murderer who was 'good', and said that was nonsense. But I didn't say that to excuse murder or lighten it in any way. It's hard to discuss this without grabbing some really contriversial real world examples, but I have no real problem with believing that there might be people who murder innocents without being fundamentally depraved (and hense, under my definition 'good people'). That's why considered the question of how the murderer behaves when they discover for themselves that they have actually committed murder so fundamental to determining 'good' or 'evil'. The question becomes, once your ignorance is removed, what do you do about it? The person challenged me with 'What if there was a good person who murdered evils because he thought they weren't people', and I responded with, "Well, what if there was a good person who murdered orcs because he thought they weren't people?" and that's not at all a hypothetical. It's meant to point out the many of our most heroic PC's are probably not that much better off than the 'evil elf child murdering person' of the example, and yet we want to insist that they are 'good'.

Now, I am an absolutist, so I agree that murder is evil whether you know it is evil or not, but that's not what I've been talking about. What I've been talking about is in a sense how you feel about doing evil. Does it bother you? Do you try to resist or avoid it? Do you feel remorse when you do wrong? That's really the only thing that divides the 'good person' from the 'bad person'. Because here is the clincher, I've said that you are in control of your own emotions, but in one sense that is false. No one is in perfect control of their emotions, and in the same way no one is in perfect control of their actions. That doesn't make us less responsible, but it does mean that noone can behave exactly as they would want to behave at all times. Go ahead and try it. You'll find I'm right on that.

So for me, the question of whether the person murdered someone one time or whether they blew up and yelled at their children in irritation is a fairly minor one on some levels. There are differences. Those actions have different consequences and they tend to indicate different levels of depravity (or they might not!) and the just punishment for those crimes might or might not be different, but the relative pardonability of the crimes or the 'evil' of the crimes doesn't differ. It's not like you act a little wrathful and you only have to do this little good deed to balance it out and then it is all ok, or if you murder someone you have to do a bunch of really good deeds to make up for it. We don't get to stand here and go, 'You are a bad person and I'm a good one.', and if we do its taken us very far afield from the empathy and compassion I see as central to 'Good'.

But anyway, that is taking us rather far afield. My original statement was that evil is just as confined in its behavior as good - and in fact in some senses it is more confined because the 'evil emotions' are more compelling to specific sorts of actions than the 'good emotions' and because good modes of behavior are more easily broken than bad ones. I stand by that. I think that my use of the word 'code' has confused things some, because as someone pointed out, neither good nor evil is intrinsically attached to the idea of an external reviewable code. In D&D terms, Chaotic Good would reject the idea of a code as niave or worse. However, 'code' or not, there is still a standard of behavior which is required of both good and evil, and the nature of the actor if trained in one mode of behavior or the other will tend to rebel against departing from that mode of behavior.

Frequently, in D&D I find I have to step back and impartially look at Evil and ask myself, "Why is that someone would choose evil over good? What attractive argument could be made in evil's behalf?" In our world, when appeals are made on behalf of evil, they are almost invariably said to be 'good' - very few people believe that they are 'evil'. But in the D&D world, where you can more objectively measure this, people wouldn't as often mistake themselves or what they believed for 'good' (although certainly many would), but rather they would tend to believe that Evil was the right, proper, and true way to believe. That is to say that they would believe 'Evil' (big 'e') was 'good' (small 'g') and 'Good' was 'evil' (small 'e'). There sense of right and wrong would be reversed, and they would tend to argue rather passionately (and if they were intelligent with great complexity and intellectual rigor) for what they believe was right (ei Evil). If you have a society that is say Lawful Evil, and knows itself to be, how do they justify themselves? They surely don't chuckle a maniacal laugh and say, "Muhahaha I'm evil. I worship the god of pederasty and sacrificing babies just because I love the terrific pain she inflicts on her worshipers, muhahaha."

No, people who hold evil beliefs will probably seem quite 'ordinary' and they'll believe something that rational and reasonable people could believe. They won't mostly be murderers, theives and robbers, which is why I find it funny when someone tries to 'detect evil' to discover the murderer. Because beside the fact that in my campaign the spell is likely to fail, you are also likely to find all sorts of suspects who aren't the murderer doing that. But they will be prone to, if they find that they can profit by it (and really, not many of us find ourselves in a situation where killing someone else is profitable) murder, or theivery or whatever, and most importantly they won't feel that they've done anything 'wrong' in doing so. They'll see their actions as perfectly justified, and they would do it again and they don't feel in the slightest sorry about it. But mostly, they'll manifest their evil in petty ways. It's not like you can divide the world into 'those evil murderers' and then 'good people' as if no one was evil unless they murdered someone or did some other horrible crime.

As for how all of this relates to alignment, first, I hope you can understand after all of that how I find it funny when people say that they find alignment confining and incapable of representing complex and multidiminsional characters. And secondly, and more to the point of why I'm passionately writing all of this, I don't evil cool at all and I very much want to destroy that whole idea. I think that the idea of evil being cool is one that is very very much not grounded in reality and reflects someone whose primary experience with evil in a conscious way (not their real experience with evil, but their experience with things that they labeled evil) was through movies with very unrealistic and dare I say one-dimensional characters. I agree with the symbolism in Tolkien, where his villains are so utterly lame that they lack bodies or even names and are empty shells or shelless emptiness. I think that the idea of evil being cool is pernicious and destructive.
 

I could, but I'm no where near as elegant, subtle, or authoritative as the text. I'd make a very poor substitute.

The basic idea is that there is really no difference between your thought life, your words, and your actions. They are all various ways you behave in a real sense and the modes and patterns of one inevitably influence the other. Thinking is not not a form of behaving even if it is hidden. So, if you change your actions you'd tend to pull your thoughts with it. If you change your thoughts, you tend to pull your actions with them. They are intrinsicly interconnected as who you are. The way that you entertain thoughts and emotions is who you are.

If you were transparent, if someone could see inside you, the fundamental ugliness or beauty of your thoughts would be revealed. Your actions are merely a reflection of this inner true nature. We don't look into a cup and see manure and slime and say, "The cup is clean.", just because the outside is polished. It is the same way with people. What comes pouring out of them is inevitably what's really inside them.

I should say that its not merely my particular religion that believes this. This is a fairly widespread philosophical belief which you might lump together as the 'spiritual school', and it includes everything from Stoicism to Buddism as well as the tradition I'm pointedly not directly discussing. (Note, I'm not saying that these schools of thought agree on all things, because they don't, but they do agree on this point.) I should also say that while there are a few points of belief where I'd be considered somewhat 'radical', this is not one of them. The idea that thoughts are every bit as evil as actions is about as mainstream and uncontriversial belief as you can get in my religion, so it wouldn't require any high degree of theological learning to track down the basis of this belief if you wanted to.
I appreciate your lengthy response.... :)

I was brought up Roman Catholic, believe in most Christian doctrine, yet I don't know anyone of them, either priest, pastor or parishioner that believes that an insult is "every bit as evil as murdering someone". In my two examples, I don't know one religious expert, theological historian or even one that is merely a good Christian that would consider them same things.

How often have any of us finished an encounter with another individual and as we left the scene, thought to our ourselves "man, that person is a scum." or "someone needs to punch that jerk."

Yet, according to your definition, I am guilty of committing the same evil as Murder.

I don't know..... for me to believe that Buddhism or Catholicism considers an insult every bit as terrible as murder, I would need to see some proof. (And this is not the forum for that discussion, no pun intended)

Again, I appreciate your lengthy explanation (there's some really good stuff there) and based upon what you wrote, I believe you when you say your beliefs are absolutist, as you admit.
 
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I seriously doubt "Play an evil cleric of an evil god as if he were good" will work for a player who refuses to play evil characters.:)
If that's Kzach's attitude, he's setting himself up for disappointment. One of 4e's big selling points is that you can refluff stuff pretty easily. In earlier editions, he might have had to jump through hoops to play an evil cleric as if he were good. But in 4e he can easily play a cleric of a Good deity who actually is Good while using a refluffed 'evil' feat. Unless Living games are more an@l retentive than I imagine, I don't see a logistical problem.

Now, a general bemoaning that options with the 'evil' sticky note are better than options with the 'good' sticky note is cool. I don't have an opinion on the matter, but it is odd to over-reward evil characters in a supposedly good-centric game.
 


That doesn't make sense to me for evaluating D&D. If everything not good in D&D were evil there would simply be no neutral or unaligned. Neutral has had a long history of being for animals, balance people, and people between good and evil classifications.

Well, I only mentioned Neutral in the second sentence. Evil is a subset of Non-Good. Neutral + Evil = Non Good. We're not really disagreeing. Much.

I also appreciate celebrims lengthy post on his view of evil. Let's all agree it's not a religion discussion. Just a viewpoint.


For D&D, I think I'm going to have to stick with the "your actions define/prove your alignment". For the simplest reason that the GM can't read the players mind. So IF Celebrim is right and thinking about murder is murder, the PCs can't be judged by that. But they can be judged by their actions. I also think that D&D morality is a bit looser. In order to keep the system working, it has to be OK for Paladins to kill orcs. Make that too slippery a slope and the combat class Paladin will too easily lose his status.

Now, if I understand Celebrim's basic tenet, thinking of an evil act is the same as doing it. Thus thinking of murdering someone is the same as murdering them. Or at least both are BAD to different degrees.

The problem I see with that philosophy is the pink elephant problem. Per the story, a king was sold a philosopher's stone and told that it will work, so long as he doesn't think of pink elephants while using it. The king naturally thought of pink elephants, so it never worked.

If thinking of murdering someone is an evil act, all I have to do is have Celebrim read about the time he crept into Eric's Grandma's house and smothered her with a pillow while she slept. He just now visualized it, and as an extreme interpretation of what he's saying is now tainted by evil.

Our brains have so many random thoughts and impulses going on, that just as my company only claims ownership of my good ideas, and none of my bad ones, I can only claim responsibility for my actual actions, not of the possible actions that run through my head.

The idea that somebody is evil because of their thoughts seems like a loaded deck. Everybody has a wide range of ideas come into their head as they go through life. This philosophy would instantly make them guilty. That would play into the hands of somebody looking to make people feel bad about themselves, despite them never actually doing any harm. Cults usually work on that angle by lowering the self esteem of the flock. So do abusers.

the strength of somebody's character is by their actions and how they choose to live their life.
 

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