Example of Basic D&D Combat

[ExploderWizard]

nah, any referee worth his weight in dice would have Fredrik's player roll for the monsters until he gets his PC back into the game.

The new character will be chained to the wall in the room all those Hobgoblins just came from, the last survivor of a group that didn't' have a PC with a sleep spell memorized.

True and True. A player should only have to sit and twiddle the thumbs if he/she feels like it.

 

[rogueattorney]

Twelve hobgoblins? That’s twice the maximum possible listed in their stat block! That’s twice the maximum listed for them on the second level wandering monster chart! Some might think my pointing this out is a complaint about the number showing up in this encounter, but my thought is why did the designer even put a “number appearing” line in the stat block. Didn’t all DMs just put however many they wanted in an encounter?

If you read the other example of play appearing in the book (it's physically later in the book, but confusingly temporally earlier in the sequence), you'll see that the pcs were on the second level. Hobgoblins are a first level monster. Their printed number appearing is the number of monsters that will be found on the level they usually appear on. When found on lower levels, there will be more monsters.

Why does Morgan get a shot at the charging hobgoblins on their turn? There’s no rule, that I can find, that says you get to attack when your opponent charges (there’s no “charge” mechanic – it’s just a description of their movement). This action/allowance seems to break the rules, and I can’t figure out why.

Others have noted that there is a rule in Chainmail, and thus by default OD&D, that allows missile users to fire at charging opponents during the opponents' charge. I'd guess that this example was written before it was determined whether that rule stayed. Or maybe to the old wargamers writing things, it was so patently obvious they didn't feel the need to include. Or maybe they just wanted to throw an example in as to how the DM could make rulings that just seemed to make sense.

There is a charge mechanic in the Expert rules.

Regarding Silverleaf wanting to cast a spell, but the hobgoblins will get to attack him before he can do so: oddly, I can't find any rule in the basic set that says being attacked and/or hit messes up spell casting. Until right now, being unable to find the rule, I had thought this was a core rule in BD&D. Have I been wrong in thinking this all these years? Is this just an AD&D rule that I backward added to my memory of BD&D?

It's in the spell casting section. It might be more explicitly stated in the Expert set, though.

So, Morgan has a 13 Dexterity and a 16 or 17 Strength. She’s lucky, munchkiny, and cheaty. I wonder if she’s the DM’s girlfriend?

Nope, as we learned when we got hold of the DM's Adventure Log, she's the editor's pc. Sister Rebecca seems to be the pc of the editor's wife or sister.

Don’t forget there are six sleeping hobgoblins in this room. They’ll wake up soon.

Nope. Check the duration on that Sleep spell again. They won't be waking up any time soon.

Nice role playing Sister Rebecca.

Nice role playing Morgan. And this is played out without a big intraparty argument about alignment.

Since they're married or related in RL, it's probably a good idea that D&D arguments don't get too heated.

One PC is dead, so the party is down to just 3, now.

Actually, two are dead. Poor Black Dougal the thief didn't even make it this far.

 

[frankthedm]

You don't have to win initiative to talk about a plan and execute it.

You don't have too, but the combination of a Caller & the whole party choosing their actions first, then resolving them really adds to the potential for group tactics. In a initiative-cycling system, like 3e & 4e, the players can still plan thier actions as a group, but it is a lot easier for one player to jump the gun or to just say "Screw it, I'm trying something stupid!" Indeed, in an initiative-cycling system IME tactically minded players have to make judicious use of Ready and Delay actions just to undo the damage of the initiative roll crapshoot.

 

[Bullgrit]

For the record: I know about the other example of play in the book. I have the book (two copies, actually). But I was keeping my comments to just the example on this one page and the rules in this one book.

Bullgrit

 

[Ourph]

there is a rule in place about ranged weapons being ready. it comes from chainmail.

readied ranged weapons were always given a chance to fire at opponents as they moved. if the opponent were in melee combat with the bowman that would be different. but since the hobgoblins had to move to get to the bowman or any of the party in this case. the bowman can shoot.

For the Moldvay/Cook B/X rules I don't believe this is exactly the case. IIRC, it's a simpler system in which initiative is always resolved so that ALL missile fire occurs first in the round, followed by movement and melee combat. So instead of the round looking like this...

Hobgoblins fire missiles, move and make melee attacks -> PCs fire missiles, move and make melee attacks.

... it looks like this ...

Hobgoblins fire missiles -> PCs fire missiles -> Hobgoblins move and make melee attacks-> PCs move and make melee attacks.

 

[ExploderWizard]

For the Moldvay/Cook B/X rules I don't believe this is exactly the case. IIRC, it's a simpler system in which initiative is always resolved so that ALL missile fire occurs first in the round, followed by movement and melee combat. So instead of the round looking like this...

Hobgoblins fire missiles, move and make melee attacks -> PCs fire missiles, move and make melee attacks.

... it looks like this ...

Hobgoblins fire missiles -> PCs fire missiles -> Hobgoblins move and make melee attacks-> PCs move and make melee attacks.

We tried things like that for a while and it works great unless you have a spellcaster. In the taking turns sequence as written it goes:
1)morale
2)movement
3)missiles
4)spells
5)melee

If it worked as you outlined above, a caster would never get a spell off unless they were facing an enemy without missile fire capacity. Casting in combat is hard enough.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I like a phased combat sequence. (The one I use and linked to is derived from Chainmail and Swords & Spells. There is another one -- which I haven't used -- in the Mentzer Immortals rules, too -- you can also find info on it in MrReapers Rules Cyclopedia errata document: search for 'This is a revision to the Combat Sequence Checklist').

In the sequence I use, standard spellcasting is interrupted by taking damage (e.g. from an arrow), but also by becoming engaged in melee (i.e. you don't have to actually score a melee hit, just get close enough to engage the caster).

 

[RFisher]

Yeah, the rule for spell spoilage is in the beginning of the spell chapter in the Expert book.

While the bit about Morgan getting the arrow off probably is just one of the many details that didn’t make the cut, I choose to see it as emphasis that the booklet clearly says that it’s “rules” are really “guidelines”. The DM should do what seems right rather than being a slave to the given combat procedure.

So much of that example reminds me of reasons why it’s my favorite edition.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Yeah, the rule for spell spoilage is in the beginning of the spell chapter in the Expert book.

While the bit about Morgan getting the arrow off probably is just one of the many details that didn’t make the cut, I choose to see it as emphasis that the booklet clearly says that it’s “rules” are really “guidelines”. The DM should do what seems right rather than being a slave to the given combat procedure.

So much of that example reminds me of reasons why it’s my favorite edition.

True for me too. I am currently at work on my own variant system and this thread has made me stop and think about where I'm going with the project. The more I think about combat rules and the ridiculous situations that can crop up when following a set of rules to the letter (even a very good set), the more I'm leaning towards a guideline approach. I've got some re-working and simplifying to do.

 

[Bullgrit]

When I was playing BD&D (1980-81), we never even bothered with the order of actions thing. We just rolled initiative (straight 1d6), and then let each monster and PC go on their side's turn, in order of the individual Dexterity.

That is, on the party's turn, Silverleaf could cast his spell, then Morgan could shoot her bow, then Fredrick could move up and attack in melee, then Sister Rebecca could move up and attack in melee.

But that was totally a house rule we came to use without actually consciously choosing to use a house rule. That method of handling combat just kind of happened without us really learning the details of the rules.

* * *

I choose to see it as emphasis that the booklet clearly says that it’s “rules” are really “guidelines”.

This is one of the most annoying things that people say in a discussion of D&D -- it's an excuse, a cop-out.

In an edition we don't like, a wonky rule is "stupid and an example of why that edition is bad."

In an edition we do like, a wonky rule is "meh, they're only guidelines that you can ignore or change."

Why can't we just acknowledge a rule is wonky, "but here's how we work around it." Or explain why a rule is not wonky. Let's not always fall back on the "they're only guidelines" thing.

* * *

I'd love to play a game of BD&D, again. I've offered many times to DM a game session or two for my group, but no one has shown any interest. But I don't think anyone is opposed to BD&D, they just don't like one-offs. <sigh>

Bullgrit