Excerpt: Archons (merged)

[Wolv0rine]

Isn't the picture fluff just as much as the description is?

No, pictures are there for a reason. They not only show you what a creature basically looks like, they give an impression of what the creature IS. This is the point of illustration, to convey meaning in a visual/graphic sense. The picture shows up a creature made of fire, with fire-wings and no face, wielding a sword not wreathed in flames, not a flaming or firey sword, but a sword made of fire. His torso trails off into a plume of fire. It's an angel made of fire. A creature made of fire... is a fire elemental.

 

[Scribble]

I'd rather see beings that are more tied to their respective gods.
Near-perfect looking winged humanoids whose voices carry the words of creation on their lips. They change the reality around the with a whisper, and this can lead to various effects on those who hear them, from terrible exaltation to ruinous ecstasy.

The somber harbingers of the god of death would be quite different from the lithe beauties that serve the goddess of love.

Yeah but they've done away with angels serve specific gods. They're mercenaries now.

How do you illustrate something carrying the word of creation on its lips?

And tying it to a god brings up the whole thing they were trying to move away from... that some angels by nature of the god they served would be all but useless to most players...

Angel of love... to quote the simpsons... "He's bring'n love let's get him!"

 

[Wolv0rine]

For those who don't like the element-bent to Angels it is quite easy to change. Just change any element damage into Radiant or Necrotic and your good to go.

For instance:


Becomes:

Oh trust me, if I start working on any 4E material, I'll be changing things. Lots of things. Angels will be right on that list. But the fact that you can freely change anything you dislike isn't the point, the point is that THIS is what the professional designers ended up giving us after huge sums of money in development (as Rouse said), a handful of years of work, presumably scads of customer feedback, skulking the internet, and gods know what else. And this is what they churned out as cannon. It's just... these are supposed to be professionals, I expect leagues better.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It isn't a matter of quality though, it is a matter of personal opinion on what is good fluff. Fluff that I may like, you may detest, and vice versa.

Hell a prime example of this is the cosmology change, some people adore it others abhor it.

 

[JohnSnow]

Sorry, but "angels have some elemental-based attacks" is hardly the same as "angels are elementals."

Moreover, "angel with a flaming sword" is such a part of modern pop culture that Kevin Smith was able to spoof it in Dogma.

The first words uttered by every angel that appears in the bible are, roughly, "don't be afraid." Call me nuts, but I hardly think this means they're inoccuous looking.

I have no problem with angels whose natural form is, essentially, "seething energy creature." Now, a particular angel might be sent to the world in another form, but that would be by the power of the god ordering it around, not necessarily due to its own abilities.

Frankly, I can actually see the angels and archons of Fourth Edition getting some real use in play at my table. And that's something I haven't been able to say for a long time. Mostly, I just used them as set-dressing in the past, and I hardly need stats to do that.

 

[DandD]

So why chose the most boring way and make them mirror images of the archons? If elemental stuff is the game of the primordials, why not give the deities their own thing?

The only thing they have in common in D&D 4th edition is that background-lore wise, they formed the vast armies for their respective masters. Appearance-wise, they look different. Angels have wings, eyes, come from the Astral Sea, have a more metallic-feeling look to them. Archons are standart-3rd edition elementals with fancy elemetal armour from the Elemental Chaos who recruit other inhabitants of the Elemental Chaos by turning them into Borg (We are the Archons. Resistance is futile. Your elemental powers will be added to our own). Although they do have at least personality, unlike the Star Trek-Borg.

Now, people can and should be able to complain that they don't like the look. But if you're putting up a picture of a 4th edition Angel to a 4th edition Archon side by side, people will be able to tell the difference.

Those are Ice Archons. And here's an Angel of Vengeance (who by the way uses fire-and-cold attacks. He just looks blue, because flames that are hot and cold at the same time are blue in D&D, appearantly).

Also, a Fire Archon and the Angel of Valor (he shoots lightning, don't forget that):

They're not the prettiest things around. But they're distinguishable from each another, unless you purposefully try not to be able to see it.

 

[Scribble]

Oh trust me, if I start working on any 4E material, I'll be changing things. Lots of things. Angels will be right on that list. But the fact that you can freely change anything you dislike isn't the point, the point is that THIS is what the professional designers ended up giving us after huge sums of money in development (as Rouse said), a handful of years of work, presumably scads of customer feedback, skulking the internet, and gods know what else. And this is what they churned out as cannon. It's just... these are supposed to be professionals, I expect leagues better.

I think it's a pretty cool story... Very "oldskool mythology style"

A bunch of chaotic yet all powerfull beings created the world and everything in it out of roiling energy. (We don't know so much about stuff like quantum physics and electromagnestim and stuff but we still know stuff is energy.)

Their creations that were pretty much as powerfull buit not quite so into the chaotic everything decided to gank the world and make it theirs.

Primordeals created the archons to fight for them, God's created the angels. They're made of the same stuff because they're made pretty much of the stuff of creation. Energy.

it fits the story as a whole.

Also saying angels are beings of energy opens them up for lots of different builds and powers.

Even the angel of love.. who shoots hearts out of its chest care bear style.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I don't think others are saying that there aren't differences. They have them. Likewise, I don't think it's matter of some similarity.

I think the argument is that they're too similar. I think plenty of evidence has been proffered to make that argument already. As someone said earlier though, it's a simply a matter of preference. Some are going to be bothered by it, others are not.

Me, I would've preferred more distinction between the two creature types. Frankly, the Archon fluff seems a lot more appropriate for Demons, based on what we know about their relationship to the Elemental Chaos.

 

[lutecius]

Also, 4th edition angels simply use some elemental powers for some specific attacks. I doubt that a human wizard using Ray of Frost would be considered to be an elemental, right? And flame-breathing Dragonborn aren't elementals either.

Maybe not. But if they looked like they were basically made of an element and their "lower bodies trailed off into flowing energy", and they turned into pillars of flame when bloodied or if you took cold or fire damage when you hit them I would have at least some suspicions.

 

[Rechan]

This angel looks more like, well, steel to me, not ice.

Maybe it's got a cold attack because vengeance is best served cold, or the icy heart of revenge, but it ain't made of coldstuff.

Besides, Angels were formed of the Astral sea, not the elemental chaos. Fallen Seraph beat me to it: give'm radiant damage, if you're so insistent.