Excerpt: Economies [merged]

UngeheuerLich said:
this is why trade with magical items is soooo expensive that you need 1/5th buy price to be cost neutral and 140% sell price to make money...

That is a rather weak business model when you base your entire business (and life) on the chance that there might be some superhoeroes adventurers in the next town in the middle of nowhere who want to sell some magical items at a dumping price and being able to sell it for a huge profit in the next town in the middle of nowhere.
Magical item trade is a a nice opportunity for those merchants, but not the main reason for their existence.
Still the PoL gameworld is a bit unbelievable when traders arrive everywhere on a weekly basis.
 
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WyzardWhately said:
The question on my mind is: Is there still room for freaky wondrous items? Once the economy steps in to regulate PCs, and make sure they don't fall off of either end of the magic item treadmill, is there still room for portable holes, cubic gates, apparati of Kwalish, and the various other freaky acoutrements that adventurers tended to accumulate pre-3E?
That's a deal breaker for me. If my PCs can't get an Apparatus of Kwalish, there is something wrong with the game.

I'm sure everyone will agree with me.
 

Derren said:
That is a rather weak business model when you base your entire business (and life) on the chance that there might be some superhoeroes adventurers in the next town in the middle of nowhere who want to sell some magical items at a dumping price and being able to sell it for a huge profit in the next town in the middle of nowhere.
Magical item trade is a a nice opportunity for those merchants, but not the main reason for their existence.
Still the PoL gameworld is a bit unbelievable when traders arrive everywhere on a weekly basis.
do you think so? IMHO it is more believable than searching in ruins for items other people lost somehow...

its also on less believable than buying silk in china and selling it in europe for a lot more than they paid there (i don´t know the exact numbers)

or buying cocoa and coffee in africa/south america and selling it for several times as much here...

so that model is not soooo far away from reality...
 

UngeheuerLich said:
its also on less believable than buying silk in china and selling it in europe for a lot more than they paid there (i don´t know the exact numbers)

or buying cocoa and coffee in africa/south america and selling it for several times as much here...

so that model is not soooo far away from reality...

Ther difference is that we know that there is silk in china and coffee in africa/south america.

Those D&D traders do not know if there are some adventurers in the next town and even in the unlikely event that there is a band at exactly the time the trader arrives he can't know if those adventurers have a magical item for sale or if he has enough money to buy it. It makes no sense to travel from town to town to wait for this minimal chance. There must be a other reason why the merchants travel everwhere on a weekly basis.
 

Derren said:
Ther difference is that we know that there is silk in china and coffee in africa/south america.

Those D&D traders do not know if there are some adventurers in the next town and even in the unlikely event that there is a band at exactly the time the trader arrives he can't know if those adventurers have a magical item for sale or if he has enough money to buy it. It makes no sense to travel from town to town to wait for this minimal chance. There must be a other reason why the merchants travel everwhere on a weekly basis.
He knows that he only appears when PCs want to sell their good^^

No, seriously: it makes the difference between a successful trader and an unsuccessful one...

Maybe he has some kind of spy network which informs him where Adventurers sell their items... he could have access to the "teleport" rirual so that he can be where he is needed... but its costly to do, so he needs to make profit out of his trades...

Or he could just travel around in places which attract adventurers and then start off to some other place where he can make profit (no profit can be made if he is stationary in small villages)
 

UngeheuerLich said:
Or he could just travel around in places which attract adventurers and then start off to some other place where he can make profit (no profit can be made if he is stationary in small villages)

Traveling around costs money too so unless he has a way to make profit without ripping off adventurers he will be soon very, very poor.
 

Kwalish Kid said:
That's a deal breaker for me. If my PCs can't get an Apparatus of Kwalish, there is something wrong with the game.

I'm sure everyone will agree with me.

Totally. Most important thing IMO.

See ya,
Ken
 

I'd liken the trade in magic items more to a black market, and an illiquid black market at that. I think equating them with drugs or guns in our modern market might not be too far from the truth.

First up, our traveling merchant has to give up the initial 20% outlay. Then, he has to transport them from town to town, so the magic item has to pay a percentage of the cost of the wagon, horses, feed, hands and wear and tear. In travelling, he needs security, probably increased security now that he's carrying a magical item. Then there are bribes, taxes, tolls, local charges for setting up shop in the market, etc. The Merchant's Guild takes a piece of his business as well. Also probably a good idea to pay the local Thieve's Guild their vig so they just don't steal the thing from you.

THEN, the magical item is a highly valuable and risky object to move. So, the Merchant probably deals with the negotiations personally. Now, you can't just put up a sign '+1 sword 1000gp, no lay-by' for this sort of item. One, you'd just asking to get killed and robbed (maybe even by the local authorities in less LG areas). So, you're going to want to make discreet inquiries among reputable buyers who might not slit your throat rather than paying for the goods. Hiring guards to look after you while you're doing all this is also going to be expensive since, again, you want reputable people who are unlikely to slit your throat and take the goods. And you want to pay them well so they don't feel like they're being ripped off.

And we haven't gotten to haggling with the potential customer yet, spending all that time before being told 'no, it's too expensive' and then having to go through it all over again.

Now, if your PCs would rather turn all that into an adventure in itself, more power to you. But it's probably a more efficient use of a party's time/wealth ratio to raid tombs of loot and eat the 80% markdown. After all, the only way anyone would consider selling a magical item is if they were of no use to them anymore, they're just too good to give away on a whim.

Now, if you assume that two groups of Adventurers are going to meet, it presents an interesting dilemma. Imagine an encounter between two groups who are just as avaricious and grasping as each other, even if both are the 'good guys'. :D If this group is of lower level than your PCs, they probably can't afford what you're selling and the PCs probably don't want anything they have in trade. If at equal level, then a decent ammount of barter can probably be had, trading useless items for more useful ones (although, if you think they're useless, chances are they're useless to the other party too). If the other group is of higher level, the PCs probably can't afford what they're trying to flog off and they run the risk of the other party beating them up and taking their stuff. :)

(am I discussing economics or ecology? I can't really remember anymore... ;) )

And then we come to religious orders, organizations and nobles. Now, if your Paladin wishes to bring his religious order into DnD economics then I propose that we re-institute the practice of Tithing to the class. I remember, playing a Paladin for 20 years or so, the joys of having to give most of my loot to the orders, along with any magic item I couldn't wear. I'd LOVE to inflict that on 4E just to displace a certain amount of anger and resentment. The same goes for the Order of Mages, the Thieves' guild, Assassin's Guild, etc. And, I think Adventurers should be taxed along with all the rest of the Kingdom's citizens.

As a DM, I'm starting to get a headache just considering the prospect of having to run a deep and realistic DnD economy. I can imagine the reaction of my players at the table if I rocked up and said 'Hey, guys, I don't have an adventure for today... SO instead, your characters will be doing their tax returns! Now, since you've adventured in The Free City of Greyhawk, Waterdeep and Sharn thanks to numerous Plane Shifts, the interdimentional tax collection agency from Sigil is threatening to expunge your essence from the multiverse unless you get these done tonight! So, in other words, if we don't do this, we start a new campaign..."

Yup, that'll go over REAL well...
 

To the Pro-4E Magic Item System Crowd:

Can you list an example of a real world good where:
It sells for 5 times as much as the vendor buys it for
The vendor adds no value to the good (either by changing it, or moving it from point A to point B)

I can't. And it's messing with my chi. Spare me the chorus of "Can you name a real world good that SHOOTS FIREBALLS!", too. =)

To the Anti-4E Magic Item System Crowd:

The 20% is a pure disincentive to swap magic items. That's it. There is no other reason for it to exist. My question is, is there a better system out there that creates similar disincentives without such a clumsy mechanic? Aside from the "I tell my players that if they swap too many things, they will get less" types?

-Cross
 

Crosswind said:
To the Pro-4E Magic Item System Crowd:

Can you list an example of a real world good where:
It sells for 5 times as much as the vendor buys it for
The vendor adds no value to the good (either by changing it, or moving it from point A to point B)


Used books... at least in this bloody country... You often don't get more than 1 single buck for them and then they sell them again for 5 easily...

Also, I believe the idea was that the merchant DID move them from point a to b and that costs money...
 

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