Excerpt: Economies [merged]

[Voss]

Note it doesn't say at every even numbered level. It could just as easily, and likely is, every 4 levels, the old 4/8/12/16/20 model, or every 6 to fit the 30 level scale with 5 stat increases. The statement talks about how new powers are gained at odd levels and others things are gained at even levels, so as to keep leveling fun as a reward, and not have "empty" levels. It doesn't state when exactly you get these rewards, just that when you do, it will be at an even or an odd level.

Last time I checked, even wasn't 'multiples of 4'. Even implies the every, because every other number is even. If it was every four or something else, you'd have to qualify it as 'some even levels', because 'every even level' is the default.

 

[Thasmodious]

And yet both feats and 'global adjustments' come every 2 levels. Why would it be the second of three statements if it wasn't relevant to conclusion of the fragment, or even the context of the entire sentence?

The sentence is structure as 'you gain this at odd levels, and these at even'.

You're reading too much into it. The purpose the sentence is not what goes where, but that leveling has been split between two sets of increases so as to keep leveling interesting and eliminate dead levels. Those sets are - new powers (you get those on a schedule, too, sometimes a new encounter, sometimes a new daily) on odd and 'other' on even. That's the statement. Other includes feats, increases to defense and attack numbers, and stat increases. But nothing states or implies at what frequency any of these occur other than that when they do, it will be at even levels (so a max of 15 times).

 

[Voss]

So if I told you that 'fire hydrants, apples, and fire trucks are red', your conclusion would be that only fire trucks are red? Because thats the exact same structure being used here.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

You missed the point of my post.

Mousferatu seemed to be asserting that, in 4e, magic items would be hard to dispose of, due to the lack of buyers.

The very excerpt we're discussing says that, by default, there will always be a buyer in the next town the PCs stumble across, no matter how small it is. Yes, the DM can change this, but the "expected" rule is that no matter where you are, some merchant will be there with the gold to take your items off your hands.

There were never explicit "magic item shops" in 3e, either, just a general notation to the effect magic items could be bought and sold relatively freely in large cities, based on the community wealth limits.

"Traveling merchant" is a "special effect". It could be a magic item shop. It could be an ancient artifact where you put a magic item in and gold coins come out. The point is, the expectation is that players will always be able to dump their unwanted shinies, and the default is for the DM to make this an easy task which occurs as a matter of simple note taking -- you say what magic items you want to get rid of, you get 1/5 their value in gold, on to the orc killing. If a DM wants to make the sale of a particular item a complex problem, that's up to him, but it's assumed that magic items are sold off-stage and easily according to a simple formula for value.

It's Wal-Magic in all but name.

Well, in Dark Alliance, we always stocked up on a few recall potions just in case. After we gathered up too much to carry, we zipped back to the hub, sold some stuff off, and went back to adventuring. I guess this saves them from having to put 'potion of recall' into the treasure tables.

Speaking of Dark Alliance, I did like the magic item break-down thing the sequel had going. It was pretty elegant and easy to use.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

That's a deal breaker for me. If my PCs can't get an Apparatus of Kwalish, there is something wrong with the game.

I'm sure everyone will agree with me.

I fully endorse this post.

My 1e Magic User had one of those for a while. Used the claws to batter a ship's hull in the harbour.

Good times, good times...

 

[cdrcjsn]

One of the biggest assumptions people are making on this thread is that PCs will WANT to sell low level items just because they've upgraded to better ones.

When I was playing my 13th level Wizard, I was festooned with +1 Orbs, Wands, and Staves even though I had a +3 Staff of the Warmage. Those little trinkets had value over and above their +1 to hit and damage.

Likewise, a Rogue will want to keep his humble +1 dagger even though he's now sporting a +2 Flaming Rapier.

Selling magical items just won't be a common occurance and adventurers will want to keep their stuff. Even if everyone in the party is already using their neck slot and nobody can use another +2 amulet of protection, there is little incentive to sell the item and quite a lot to do other things with it...and there are indeed other things you can do with it.

 

[Thasmodious]

So if I told you that 'fire hydrants, apples, and fire trucks are red', your conclusion would be that only fire trucks are red? Because thats the exact same structure being used here.

That's stupid. Not the same at all. Even numbers are even numbers. It is a term that means evenly divisible by two. It does not mean, counting by two's only. So if you gain stat increases at 4/8/12/16/20, those are still even numbers. The focus of the sentence wasn't the small list of things, but that you gain one set of increases on odd and one set of increases on even. The new attack powers on odd, comes on a schedule, too. Dailies are 5/9/15 for example. You gain things other than attack powers on even levels. These INCLUDE those mentioned in the list in the excerpt, but nothing implies that everything on that list happens every single even numbered level. Like I said, you are reading too much into a simple statement.

You also gain utility powers on even numbered levels, but I guess since they didn't mention those in that list, they must have stripped utility powers from the game, that one sentence being an all-encompassing declaration of gameplay and all. Incidentally, you don't gain utility powers at EVERY even numbered level either (2/6/10/12/16...).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Last time I checked, even wasn't 'multiples of 4'. Even implies the every, because every other number is even. If it was every four or something else, you'd have to qualify it as 'some even levels', because 'every even level' is the default.

That's why it was named "mis-leading". Normally you expect even not to be limited to multiples of 4.

Or see it another way:

Characters gain new attack powers at odd-numbered levels, and they gain new feats, ability score increases, and global adjustments to all their attacks and defenses at even-numbered levels

You get (attack) powers at odd-numbered levels.
You gain a selection of ability scores, global adjustments to attacks and defenses at even levels. The exact selection varies.

Off course, you might be right. There was a change, and we get ability increases at every even level. But previous evidence suggests against it, and using the the above interpretation, we don't create contradictions.

 

[keterys]

So if I told you that 'fire hydrants, apples, and fire trucks are red', your conclusion would be that only fire trucks are red? Because thats the exact same structure being used here.

No, it isn't. You receive level up benefits on even levels (true). It doesn't say 'all even levels'.

Any more than you can say that all of the fire hydrants, apples, and fire trucks are crimson which is a shade of red. Some, in fact, aren't.

Even ignoring the number of apples that aren't red or only contain some red.

 

[AZRogue]

So if I told you that 'fire hydrants, apples, and fire trucks are red', your conclusion would be that only fire trucks are red? Because thats the exact same structure being used here.

Yeah, I assumed the same thing. This article, though, includes odd levels for ability score increases, and none every other level.

Determine Ability Scores. Generate scores as for a 1st-level character, applying racial modifiers. Then increase those scores as shown on the Character Advancement table in the Player’s Handbook, with increases at 4th level, 8th level, 11th, 14th, and so on.

It makes you wonder since they were both released "after" the books were final. I imagine they're both correct and level 11 and 21 are included due to the change in Tier, but otherwise still every 4th level like before.