Excerpt: Economies [merged]

[pawsplay]

I've been somewhat involved in helping deal with my grandmother's estate. Antique dealers seem to follow roughly this model as well. Sure it might be crazy to sell something for a quarter of what someone would pay in an antique shop, but the reason for that is I really can't find the person who wants to pay that full price, but I can find an antique dealer. That's the way it works. As I've said previously, if the party is interested in giving up adventuring to establish a shop, develop a reputation, join the right guilds, etc, then they can sell items at retail price. But that's a game best simulated by a different system.

Antiques are not at all the same market. Not everyone wants antiques. Antiques are expensive because a high paying buyer will be found, but in the meantime, the item gets stored for long periods of time, perhaps even a few generation, and at great cost in terms of security and maintenance. And estate sales have to deal with selling a lot of stuff within a certain period of time. Estate sales are typically assumed to underprice items for that reason.

But any fighter in the world would want a magical sword if he could get one. All you need to do is find one with cash.... say, the local baron's son, or one that works for a reclusive wizard.

Anyway, the whole system breaks down if the PCs encounter other adventurers and decide to operate on a swap basis. That's the big reason magic items being so undervalued is ridiculous... they are, at least, equivalent to other magic items.

Plus, in a Points of Light world, you can swap magic items for many other things that are potentially valuable.... fiefdoms in areas overrun by monsters, a percentage of taxes, a noblewoman's dowry, etc. Grandmother's ruby tiara... or a flaming greatsword? I know which one I would rather have if my kingdom is being attacked by trolls.

 

[pawsplay]

And when did the PCs build up those contacts? How do they know the king?

"Your Majesty, those orc-slaying fellows are here. Shall I meet with them?"

You don't just show up one day and say "Hi your majesty, we have a bunch of +1 swords for sale." By the time you CAN do that, the extra profit isn't worth it. Or you've been holding on to the damn things for 4 years.

But how about one +1 sword? What's the problem there?

The point is that the fundamental economics are just fine. Furthermore, becoming a merchant is one available path for adventurers. That's not a bug - it's a feature. A PC who wants to get retail for his old swords should have to go through all the steps needed to establish himself as a merchant. Of course, at this point, he's not acquiring magic swords anymore, but whatever. If that's the route you want your game to go, there's nothing wrong with it. And the system won't break. The extra profit you make on the sale is the reward you get for accomplishing all those challenges that found someone willing to pay full price for your sword.

Again. There is nothing wrong with this.

Utter nonsense. what is to stop PCs from acquiring more loot while looking for buyers with the rest? Could they not, in fact, form relationships that lead to both loot and the opportunity to sell it?

Shocker! You mean a PC willing to bully merchants around can essentially steal from them? Sure. If he's unethical and more powerful than the merchant, that's absolutely true.

What's unethical about it? It may not be nice, but why should they put up with bullying from the merchant?

And if the merchant refuses, he can take what he wants. Of course, now he's got to face the challenge presented by the merchant's guards. And perhaps deal with the wrath of the merchant's guild.

Either the merchant's guild has a bunch of +1 longswords, in which case they ought to be selling them for a reasonable price, or they don't, in which case their "wrath" will be short-lived.

If your PC wants to operate outside the laws of society, he's an outlaw. Now we have another path of adventure to pursue. And those challenges won't necessarily be packing "level-equivalent treasure packets." Which means that sooner or later, everything will be back in line - again.

My example posits nothing of the sort. I was suggesting the PCs sell out the merchant to a local noble, someone actually the legal authority over the merchant.

The default is the result if you're obeying the rules, and as far as that goes, it's perfectly realistic. Accept it and move on. Alternatively, you can try to defy it (or work around it) and embrace the new form of adventure you've embarked on - which still won't get you ahead in the end.

You literally can't beat the system.

Yeah, right.

So PCs can slay dragons and become immortals, but can't take on the fearsome Merchant's Guild? Okay, sure.

Here's an idea for a PC: a lone freedom fighter, striking out against the tyrranical Merchant's Guild, grown rich off the blood of heroes, who stand between the local lords and heroes and the magical items they need to stem the attacks by local monsters.

 

[SlagMortar]

Anyway, the whole system breaks down if the PCs encounter other adventurers and decide to operate on a swap basis. That's the big reason magic items being so undervalued is ridiculous... they are, at least, equivalent to other magic items.

Actually this is a cool idea. This seems like a great way to handle the problem of random monsters always carrying the weapon the party's fighter uses. Instead, if the party has long term adventurer friends who they occasionally bump into in a certain town, the party can swap items with them. Over time, the party will start to accumulate items they know the other party will want to trade for and these other adventurers can also be used as plot hooks. Win-win.

 

[Intense_Interest]

You misunderstood my example. I meant only "a magical sword that is very powerful."

Again, why would there be a Powerful Magic Sword created if no one demands said Magic Sword? If Demand undercuts supply, there is no supply. And since merchants know that Magic Items don't devalue over time, why would they sell it at less than a competitive market price? Fire Sale Situations are a matter of scale to them- a World-Saving Sword could probably be purchased for a song if you're the Legit World Saver, but unless the merchant is destitute and immobile, he'd never undercut his highest potential profit.

And when you really need a Powerful Magic Sword, are you really going to try and get close to a production cost price when you really, really need it? The PCs would never purchase a Dragon Slayer Sword unless they were trying to slay a dragon, and would probably pay close to 5 Giant Slaying Axes in barter if they had enough of a need.

Magic Items are what we think of as Health Insurance. And PCs are the guys that purchase it when they are bleeding out on the floor.

Which should make the PCs asking price... higher.

First, They don't have the ability to sell in bulk. If they try to carry a wagon full of 50 +1 swords, any group of 50+ orcs, and there is no reason to assume it would just be 50, would risk their stupid pointless little lives for a chance at glory and domination. Add to that any aware band of sinister plotters could scheme up a bushwhack well above the PCs level if they are carrying enough anything with enough value.

Hell if you tried to sell a wagon full of +1 swords, the Merchant would charge YOU for the rights.

Second, PCs are far more fitted to selling their swords in ones and twos, as soon as they get them, and convert them into a better protective shell around their mortal coils. Their Demand is far more immediate and not at all a logical profit-driven impluse. Health Insurance, remember? PCs will pay premium for anything that will let them play longer and end up less dead.

Third, merchants that have a habit of selling good magic items that they pick up on the trail (for cheap) are far more trustworthy than a random group of thugs with Stolen Magic . Whoever the items were stolen from probably would have struck back against the slow, predictable, killable merchant rather than the getting-the-hell-out-of-dodge wandering bums. Getting caught with the bag might get you blamed for the whole thing.

 

[AverageCitizen]

Either the merchant's guild has a bunch of +1 longswords, in which case they ought to be selling them for a reasonable price, or they don't, in which case their "wrath" will be short-lived.

Point.

So PCs can slay dragons and become immortals, but can't take on the fearsome Merchant's Guild? Okay, sure.

Here's an idea for a PC: a lone freedom fighter, striking out against the tyrannical Merchant's Guild, grown rich off the blood of heroes, who stand between the local lords and heroes and the magical items they need to stem the attacks by local monsters.

I'd play it.

 

[Intense_Interest]

Either the merchant's guild has a bunch of +1 longswords, in which case they ought to be selling them for a reasonable price, or they don't, in which case their "wrath" will be short-lived.

Yeah, no.

Considering that a +1 swords don't really grow on trees and that Disenchant/radiuum implies that bulk lesser items could be drained away to make better items, its far more likely the storage of an town's merchant guild looks like:

5 +1 longswords
2 +2 Flaming longswords
10 +5 Flaming Dancing longsword
2 Shields of Arrow Deflection
1 Cursed Shield of Arrow Attraction
200 Javelins of Lightning (1 use)
A single Boot of Thunder
1 +10 Radiant Sword of Godslaying

 

[Voss]

Wait... if the weak weapons don't grow on trees (and are therefor rare) how are they getting the handwavium to make the mega-items?

 

[malraux]

Antiques are not at all the same market. Not everyone wants antiques. Antiques are expensive because a high paying buyer will be found, but in the meantime, the item gets stored for long periods of time, perhaps even a few generation, and at great cost in terms of security and maintenance. And estate sales have to deal with selling a lot of stuff within a certain period of time. Estate sales are typically assumed to underprice items for that reason.

But any fighter in the world would want a magical sword if he could get one. All you need to do is find one with cash.... say, the local baron's son, or one that works for a reclusive wizard.

Right, so now you've sold two +1 swords. Now, having taken the time to do that, assuming both are actually happy with the purchase and don't come after you, what do you do when you get a +2 thing to sell?

 

[DandD]

Wait... if the weak weapons don't grow on trees (and are therefor rare) how are they getting the handwavium to make the mega-items?

By using the magical residue-handwavy-stuff and some kind of nifty enchant item-ritual? Or an even more powerful ritual that is far more difficult to accomplish? Like it was hinted in the excerpt and some blog long long ago?

 

[Andor]

Right, so now you've sold two +1 swords. Now, having taken the time to do that, assuming both are actually happy with the purchase and don't come after you, what do you do when you get a +2 thing to sell?

The same thing a car dealer does when a new model comes out. Send their old customers a flyer. Repeat buisness is a good thing.