Excerpt: Economies [merged]

Maybe people who want their NPCs to work just like their PCs should... dare I say it? (Dare! Dare!) stick with 3.5.
How do floating cities happen in D&D? I've never seen the spell. "Well. Someone made it at some point. Powerful artifact. Stuff." Ok. So the PCs can do the same?
I like separating PCs from NPCs. I also like this awesome quote and I'm going to apply it.
"If an NPC climbs a tree, and a PC isn't around to see it, does he roll the d20?" I submit that he does not.

I think that the economy stuff only works for PCs. NPCs probably don't sell things to each other for coppers on the gold or the entire economy would shut down. Wait. What am I saying? It doesn't shut down unless I want it to. Never mind. I forgot that I was making stuff up in my head for a moment there.
 

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Intense_Interest said:
Coffee and most other processed beverages. Frappachinos specifically. The cost to create a packaged Frappachino is about 7 times less than its production cost. Your basic soda only costs about one forth of its sale price.

You're equating that to 400% profit? Seems to me like there are other "costs of doing business" that aren't being considered.

I think a fair back-of-the-envelope calculation for a magic item merchant would be to settle on his standard of living, say 200 gp/month or whatever. Then factor in bodyguard (assume an EL 5 posse for carrying a typical EL 5 treasure), some taxes/tolls, and get a rough idea of how many items are bought/sold each month.

Assume that the standard of living matches up with the start-up capital required - and that such is balanced with all other career options available to persons of similar means. Yes, there could be great variations in the experiences of an individual merchant, but if there are 100s of such characters operating in the world, then I would think that the average experience would be at equilibrium. Otherwise, more people would sign up for the wealth and prestige of being a magic item merchant.

I seriously doubt that any such reasoning went into the buying/selling rules though. I have never seen any justification from WotC regarding a 4E rule that had to do with anything other than "it works in an MMORPG and is fun/epic/like-you'd-see-in-a-movie" or something to that effect. Since it's very rare to observe the actual numbers in a buying/selling transaction in a movie, I would expect the 4E design methodology would be inadequate for resolving this issue.
 

Thasmodious, please don't post in this thread any longer. Insults aren't appropriate. Email me with questions or complaints.

Thanks, folks. Carry on.
 

Intense_Interest said:
Coffee and most other processed beverages. Frappachinos specifically. The cost to create a packaged Frappachino is about 7 times less than its production cost. Your basic soda only costs about one forth of its sale price.

And the Bottler doesn't make it and therefore "adds value". He just bottles it. Your local coca cola is shipped in bulk and then packaged in a factory close to where you live. Unless you want to argue that packaging adds value (which it doesn't)
Well, I read through a good portion of this thread wondering whyy the obvious examples didn't pop up. Pawn Shops. This is exactly what we are talking about. That's the mark up you expect when you need to get rid of something. Don't even get me started on the mark up from Game Stop. This is not an unknown behavior, you're just not applying it to the vendors we have who would deal in such things.
 

gizmo33 said:
You're equating that to 400% profit? Seems to me like there are other "costs of doing business" that aren't being considered.

Seems to me like there are other "costs of doing business" that aren't being considered on the merchant's end as well. So?
 

gizmo33 said:
You're equating that to 400% profit? Seems to me like there are other "costs of doing business" that aren't being considered.

Alright, a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation (also cribbed from a business plan of a friend of mine)

It takes under $500k to open up a coffee franchise in the year 2004. Even assuming things like perennial costs such as insurance, worker pay, utilities, and supplies, it costs about $.30 for a $3.00 cup of coffee.

Take out milk and its only $.05 per cup.

If a store sells at least 100 cups, and many commonly go through 500 cups a weekday, you will have broken even on the day.

The reason Starbucks has piled around their stores all the incidental comfort crap is the wager that you will purchase an extra cup of coffee every 1 hour you remain in the store. The only reason Starbucks hasn't opened a franchise on every corner of every street in the world is because Milk Prices and the high-end supply costs of making that much coffee.
 

This thread is growing faster than a Hobbit with an addiction to Ent-draught...

Crosswind said:
To the Pro-4E Magic Item System Crowd:

Can you list an example of a real world good where:
It sells for 5 times as much as the vendor buys it for
The vendor adds no value to the good (either by changing it, or moving it from point A to point B)

I can't. And it's messing with my chi. Spare me the chorus of "Can you name a real world good that SHOOTS FIREBALLS!", too. =)

Cross, the problem with your example request, and I think why many people have issues here, lies with your assumptions:

For starters, the merchant is moving the good from point A (where the PCs sell it) to point B (where he resells it to someone else). In fact, the merchant is not just moving it, he is speculating on his ability to:

a) Find a buyer for the thing.
b) Not lose the product before he can deliver it.

In a D&D world, transportation is not insignificant. In fact, one can probably assume that the relatively high price of some D&D goods is directly related (as it was in the real world) to the difficulty with transporting them. Caravans get attacked. Goods get lost. In early modern times (like the English renaissance), this was just considered the cost of trade. There were lots of products that are analagous to magic items in this time period - high value to some people, totally out of reach of others. Nutmeg, for example, was sold in England at a markup of something like 60,000 percent (600 times!) its purchase price in the Indies.

The reason for this is that trading is dangerous. A successful voyage was one that turned a profit in the end, after accounting for all the losses (ships, men, goods, and so forth) incurred in the process of conducting trade. That ridiculous markup let them cover all those costs. And because the backers of the voyage were often based someplace safe, they could afford to risk it. And since the captain/leader of the expedition would be a rich man if he succeeded, they had no shortage of volunteers, despite the inherent dangers.

However, if your PCs really want to become merchants (magic item or otherwise), that's the basis of a campaign, not a way to beat the system. Merchants need contacts, resources, goods to sell, and so forth. This is fertile ground for adventure, and it's hardly a new concept. Look at Han Solo and Chewbacca, or Malcolm Reynolds and the crew of Serenity. Further back, the age of exploration (medieval to 19th century) was chock full of "adventurers" who made a living doing everything from "honest trade" to voyages of "purchase" (i.e. piracy). Heck, the very word "adventurer" was first coined to refer to merchants embarking on a new "venture."

And if they instead decide that pillaging merchants is the path for them, they can always choose to follow the path of the highwayman, bandit or pirate. And that's hardly devoid of adventure.

Selling items takes time and energy. That is an adventure in and of itself. One for which the reward is the extra gold the PCs make over what they'd get by selling cheap. This is not "railroading" - it's simply turning an attempt to "cheat the system" into an opportunity for adventure (and fun!) for everyone. How is this a bad thing?
 

Lizard said:
A few months ago, one of the biggest "W00tz!" from the pre-4e crowd was "There won't be magic item stores, like there were in 3e!"

Not from me. The closest you'd hear from me is "There won't be vague wealth-based guidelines which do nothing to determine what items are necessary for game balance math to actually work."
 



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