Excerpt: MoTP Rituals (and ToC)

[I'm A Banana]

It makes no sense if it cannot be used to attack.

It's a ritual, son, not a class power. Keep your game mechanics straight.

As a DM, I love Rope Trick being 12th-level, and being expensive to boot. It means that the PCs have it for if they really need it, but they can't just remove themselves from danger to take an extended rest every damn day, no matter where they are, like they used to.

I take the opposite track. I liked the PC's to not have to go back to town if they didn't want to or didn't have to. I don't like artificially forcing the PC's to visit civilization. If the story or exploration takes me out into the middle of nowhere, I'd like for them to get a safe night's sleep without being 12th level.

Rope Trick was about the same level as Create Food and Drink, which meant that the party could be self-sufficient. I wouldn't have to invent podunks for them if I didn't want to. They could spend the night outside, or in a dungeon. I...guess I never considered that a problem?

 

[justanobody]

It's a ritual, son, not a class power. Keep your game mechanics straight.

In light of new evidence that the space opens up below, it may be able to be used as an attack while placing a captured foe in a square and casting/dancing/whatevering the ritual around them to fall into the extradimensional space and trap them. Depends on the exact way you can get in or out of the space.

 

[Gadget]

I take the opposite track. I liked the PC's to not have to go back to town if they didn't want to or didn't have to. I don't like artificially forcing the PC's to visit civilization. If the story or exploration takes me out into the middle of nowhere, I'd like for them to get a safe night's sleep without being 12th level.

Well, you could just, you know, not have them attacked for the night (assuming you're the DM) if that is what you want. Have the Ranger make a survival check to get them a well hidden camping spot. Ubiquitous magic and a magical solution to every problem, especially at low levels, was one of the major complaints about the last edition. This makes it much more possible to have a lowerish magic (or at least more vaguely medieval) campaign without outright banning magic using classes.

 

[Fifth Element]

Well, you could just, you know, not have them attacked for the night (assuming you're the DM) if that is what you want. Have the Ranger make a survival check to get them a well hidden camping spot. Ubiquitous magic and a magical solution to every problem, especially at low levels, was one of the major complaints about the last edition. This makes it much more possible to have a lowerish magic (or at least more vaguely medieval) campaign without outright banning magic using classes.

Precisely. Not having access to rope trick does not mean you have to return to town to rest. A makeshift camp can be made most anywhere. Sure you risk interruptions in the night, but that just adds to the adventure.

 

[Fifth Element]

In light of new evidence that the space opens up below, it may be able to be used as an attack while placing a captured foe in a square and casting/dancing/whatevering the ritual around them to fall into the extradimensional space and trap them. Depends on the exact way you can get in or out of the space.

Yeah, that sounds like a ridiculously convoluted way to use a non-attack ritual to make an attack.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, you could just, you know, not have them attacked for the night (assuming you're the DM) if that is what you want. Have the Ranger make a survival check to get them a well hidden camping spot. Ubiquitous magic and a magical solution to every problem, especially at low levels, was one of the major complaints about the last edition. This makes it much more possible to have a lowerish magic (or at least more vaguely medieval) campaign without outright banning magic using classes.

There are a lot of situations where that doesn't make sense, though. If I'm in a dungeon with regular patrols and guards (especially if I've encountered them before!), or if an enemy has escaped to warn the rest earlier in the day, it makes sense to have those encounters in that area.

You could always ignore it or jack up its level before. Ubiquitous magic and a magical solution to a problem was part of the appeal of magic in earlier editions, as well.

That was kind of the point of my reply to the Mouse, after all. "I see your experience. Mine was different."

I see that some people had problems with Rope Trick being low-level magic in earlier editions. I was never one of those people. Making it higher level and more costly makes it less useful to me, not more.

Still, I await hearing about how everyone's players actually use 4e Rope Trick in real play, as opposed to this theoretical banter.

 

[Fifth Element]

You could always ignore it or jack up its level before. Ubiquitous magic and a magical solution to a problem was part of the appeal of magic in earlier editions, as well.

Okay, so now you can jack down its level and reduce the cost. Problem solved.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I take the opposite track. I liked the PC's to not have to go back to town if they didn't want to or didn't have to. I don't like artificially forcing the PC's to visit civilization.

I have never* had the party trek back to town to rest. Usually (on the rare occasions I even run dungeon crawls; I almost never do), they find a place to hole up, post a watch, and stay nervous. And sometimes they have an encounter before they're fully rested, and have to deal with it.

*For values of "never" that equal "It may have happened once or twice, but I can't think of it."

And that's how I prefer it. I absolutely don't want to "artificially force" a return to civilization, but neither do I want sleeping overnight to be as safe in the middle of a dungeon (or other dangerous area) as if they were staying in a nice inn.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Okay, so now you can jack down its level and reduce the cost. Problem solved.

I didn't ask to have it solved. I presented a counter-example.

And that's how I prefer it. I absolutely don't want to "artificially force" a return to civilization, but neither do I want sleeping overnight to be as safe in the middle of a dungeon (or other dangerous area) as if they were staying in a nice inn.

Even in this new form, Rope Trick would seem to work against that goal. This perhaps makes it less-used, but if anyone decides to get it, they'll use it to do exactly this (or they may as well have never gotten it in the first place).

Would you prefer if Rope Trick didn't exist at all?

 

[Derren]

People forget that there is already an magical item which does something similar. And it is actually more useful as using it doesn't cost something and the enemy can't find you.

At least when I remembered right. Its kalled Dimensional Knife and somewhere in the AV.