Excerpt: skill challenges

[UngeheuerLich]

Beyond that, I would argue that Intimidate is a VERY appropriate skill for use in negotiation with the nobility. It seems to work far better than diplomacy in most of the movies or books I've seen. Might a noble get a huge morale bonus in resistance? Yes, he most likely would, but as he isn't a construct, it should still have a chance to succeed.

Just my $.02.

--Steve

This particular duke however doesn´t like to be intimidated... he will be frightened, but he won´t help...

if you like him to be succeptive to intimidation then play it that way...


but i could imagine skills whic won´t hurt thatmuch on a failure, but hurt even more on a success...

intimidate fails: the duke responds harsh, but will still negotiate.

intimidate succeeds: the duke is frightened and stops negotiating, acting as you wish for a while, but after he gets support from your enemy, he will betray you... (an insight check may help to negate that effect)

 

[BASHMAN]

You know, I think skill challenges are a great way of resolving chase scenes, navigating through a jungle, etc, but not for riddles or negotiations with Dukes.

Those should be "roleplaying challenges"-- one where no dice need to be rolled at all and are entirely done by rp (at most a roll might give you a hint, like "the duke is hiding something" or "the answer is something to do with fruit")

 

[malraux]

Assuming the intimidate skill works more or less like it does in 3e, you couldn't intimidate a duke for long term support or permission in either edition.

You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

So you could get him to say that you can proceed through his territory via intimidate, but as soon as you leave, that permission would be resended and his troops will be after you. If the effect of a skill is the opposite of the goal, then, no you can use it to succeed.

 

[malraux]

You know, I think skill challenges are a great way of resolving chase scenes, navigating through a jungle, etc, but not for riddles or negotiations with Dukes.

Those should be "roleplaying challenges"-- one where no dice need to be rolled at all and are entirely done by rp (at most a roll might give you a hint, like "the duke is hiding something" or "the answer is something to do with fruit")

I think this is primarily present to present a scaffolding to RP for us crappy DMs, or as a guide for new DMs.

 

[SteveC]

To all of you "intimidate automatically fails" haters. I say you automatically fail at reading comprehension.

It is simply NOT POSSIBLE to INTIMIDATE someone into TRUSTING you. There is no DC 10000000000000 check, it is not possible, because WORDS MEAN THINGS.

Intimidate : to make timid or fearful . That is what intimidate DOES, nothing more, nothing less. If the goal of the social encounter was to have the duke give you some men, treasure, information, than intimidate could work, but there is simply no way you can intimidate someone into trusting you, period end. There is absolutely nothing short of changing the meanings of the words intimidate and trust which would accomplish that goal. (In otherwords you are living in yown fantasy world instead of just playing in one.)

BTW, in my campaigns trying to jump to the moon automatically fails, even if you are on the highest mountiantop. I guess I railroad too much...

It may be impossible to intimidate someone into trusting you, but that isn't what this challenge is about: it's about securing the assistance of the noble in question.

Consider this:

Player: I make a knowledge nobility check (I don't know if this is an actual skill, but substitute the appropriate check if it isn't). I want to know who this lord's liege is, and something that the liege is known to enjoy. Roll. Success.

GM: I'm not sure where you're going with this, but his liege is Lord Stanley, who enjoys playing cricket.

Player: Okay. This time it's intimidate. Hmmn, you seem reticent to help us out here. That's certainly understandable. I will have to mention that to Lord Stanley when I play cricket with him next month at Goblin Knob. Yes, it seems we are in a sticky wicket, here, isn't it.

Look at the context: I know who your boss is, and I'm going to tell him that you haven't been helping us. He won't like that. That's intimidate, and it's used all the time in noble circles. It's a very low level threat, actually.

The thing is, intimidate gets used all the time to get things done: NPCs do it to the PCs all the time, so why not turn the tables on them? Low level threats are commonplace in these sorts of negotiations, and they can be used to get you what you want now, but then they may also have long term consequences. You don't exactly create a friend out of it, do you? You can, however, make someone who can be almost as useful, just as Machiavelli said: better to be feared than loved, but never hated.

--Steve

 

[Novem5er]

RE: the intimidate skill . . . Yes, the next time my (real life) town has a City Counsel meeting, I'll be sure to bring my war ax and my most intimidating face. Maybe then they'll fix those dang potholes, right?

All kidding aside, I think these Skill Challenges are a great framework for non-combat events. The entire system can be thrown out the window for an RP-heavy group, but for those of us who like a little "game" with our RP, this will serve well. As for Intimidate, of course it will be useful in many negotiations... just not the example given in the excerpt.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

What I'm wondering is if there will be a mechanism for opposed skill challenges. For example if there was a debate between the PCs and another party both appealing to the Lord to trust them over the other side.

It could be a situation where the PCs need to gain a certain number of successes before the other side does, but I then realized the DM is playing the other side and has the advantage of knowing the parameters for the debate, so he couldn't have the NPCs use Intimidate and get a failure without knowing that it was an automatic failure.

I'm thinking opposed rolls in this case might work. For example: The PCs use Diplomacy to sway the Lord. The NPC uses History to remind the Lord about the last time they trusted outsiders. NPC gets higher result = 1 failure for PCs. NPCs use Bluff to convince the Lord that Noble X trusted them in similar circumstances 2 months ago. PC use Knowledge to recall that Noble X was away on a hunting expedition during that time. PCs get higher result = 1 success.

I guess in this case I would probably even out the number of successes to failures since it isn't as passive as they PCs just having to meet a set DC for success.

Thoughts?

I wondered that too, and playtest reports or blog posts implied that this might be part of the system, too. I certainly hope so.

 

[Derren]

Player: Okay. This time it's intimidate. Hmmn, you seem reticent to help us out here. That's certainly understandable. I will have to mention that to Lord Stanley when I play cricket with him next month at Goblin Knob. Yes, it seems we are in a sticky wicket, here, isn't it.

As presented that would be a bluff. But if the PC really would play cricket with Lord Stanley intimidate would imo be appropriate.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Thats rather something between diplomacy and intimidate.

And depending what you want from the duke, it could be usefull...

I however do not like tattletales... nad maybe you will get help fro me, but in the evening you might get mobbed up by some strangers when you are on your way home from the tavern (partial success with consequences)

 

[beverson]

It may be impossible to intimidate someone into trusting you, but that isn't what this challenge is about:

No. Quoted from the preview: "Setup: For the NPC to provide assistance, the PCs need to convince him or her of their trustworthiness and that their cause helps the NPC in some way.

*bold and italics mine.