Excerpt: Swarms

[Scribble]

14 pages is too much for scribble to read... so please forgive me if this was asked but...

How do we know how big a single creature in the swarm is (for purposes of squeezing through stuff...)

For stuff like spiders or bees (which exist in the real world) this might be easy... but how big is a single Needlefang Drake?

 

[Dausuul]

I like blue. Red is not blue, but purple is close, so I will call purple blue.

You can use the stats as is and give double XP if you want, but that doesn't make it elite.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "elite." I view "elite" and "solo" status as being similar to Challenge Rating in 3.X--in other words, it's a way to measure the creature's combat performance. And measurements can be incorrect. That Damn Crab, for example (second monster down), is listed as CR 3, but its "real" CR is probably something more like 5 or 6, because WotC measured wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, a monster that can take the place of two regular monsters of its level, while having attack and defense values appropriate to that level (so it isn't just a higher-level monster), is an elite monster. Whether it happens to fit the standard guidelines for elite monsters is irrelevant; there will always be special abilities that make a monster's "real" stats substantially different from what's written in the statblock.

If you have a monster that has 100 hit points, is expected to last 10 rounds in a fight, and heals 10 hit points per round, then that monster should be considered to have 200 hit points, even though 100 is the number in the statblock. To treat it like a 100 hit point monster is absurd.

 

[keterys]

As far as I'm concerned... To treat it like a 100 hit point monster is absurd.

Your opinion is your own and how you run your game is up to you, but you are wrong with respect to the rules. Period.

If my color analogy rang flat for you:
DDXP paladin deals 1d6 + 2 damage when he attacks.
KoS fighter deals 2d6 + 3 damage when he attacks.

The KoS fighter is clearly elite.

 

[Family]

Well... you're running the encounter in a 10' corridor, for one. That's just about going to guarantee overlapping aura effects and other craziness.

/other craziness

 

[keterys]

Yeah, that xkcd was well timed

 

[Boarstorm]

Edit: Nvm. Asked and answered.

 

[Mengu]

Has anyone tried a 5-swarm fight against the KotS characters? I wonder if the Dragonborn will make a difference with his breath weapon.

I just did. Wow. I was impressed with that second level party. Used the Warlord instead of the Cleric.

The Wizard got a crazy high initiative, and opened up with a Scorching Burst, moving up closer, spending an action point, and tossing a Burning Hands. With all the bonuses between his action point abilities, and the Warlord's action point abilities, the swarms were seriously hurting. The Halfling Rogue finished off one with a Sly flourish, and spent an action point to finish off another one (again thanks to a lot of help from the Warlord bonuses despite lacking sneak attack damage on the second attack). With 2 action points and 2 activations, the threat level was down 40%. The Dragonborn went next, and caught two of the three remaining swarms in his breath, hurting one. Then the swarms went and did a bit of damage to the Dragonborn, but missed the Halfling, failing to knock down anyone. To add insult to injury, the Tiefling Warlord tossed a Scorching Burst on top of two of the remaining swarms. The rest was a bit of swinging back and forth, and clean up.

The group easily survived the encounter having spent 2 action points, 1 healing surge during the encounter triggered by the Warlord, and 4 more healing surges between the 3 wounded characters afterwords. The Warlord's Wolfpack tactics were very handy for moving a wounded ally away from the swarm, so they didn't start their activation next to it.

Now I don't know what to think. 5 Swarms against this party, did seem like an appropriate encounter. I guess as GM's we have to be careful when we throw high level critters at lower level parties. Experience values seem like a guideline, but aren't absolute. Still need an experienced GM to gauge what really is or isn't an appropriate encounter.

Edit: Just to note, I didn't want to change any other variables so the fight was still in a 10 foot hallway.

 

[Darkthorne]

Oversight?

It was questioned that perhaps we are missing something from the excerpt. I think this may be the balance concern. My question regarding this: Isn't a basic attack sub-par from an at-will power? The auras for both state "swarm makes a basic attack against each enemy that starts its turn in the aura". Or am I missing something else?
Thanks

 

[Dausuul]

Your opinion is your own and how you run your game is up to you, but you are wrong with respect to the rules. Period.

If my color analogy rang flat for you:
DDXP paladin deals 1d6 + 2 damage when he attacks.
KoS fighter deals 2d6 + 3 damage when he attacks.

The KoS fighter is clearly elite.

I wasn't aware there were rules specifying the stats of elite creatures. In fact, I'm virtually certain there are no such rules--only a set of guidelines saying, "An elite creature of level X should generally have stats in this range." There is a template for "elite-ifying" a standard monster, but that's not the issue here.

The whole point of the "elite" and "solo" categories is to tell us how many of a given monster will provide a "good fight" against a typical party. If a monster is incapable of taking on a party of its level and providing a decent fight, then it is not performing the function of a solo monster and I don't give a damn what the numbers in the statblock are. Likewise, if two of a monster offer a good fight for a party of the same level, then that monster is acting like an elite even if it doesn't have "Elite" next to its name.

If the minion/regular/elite/solo system treats a creature with 100 hit points and fast healing 10 as being identical, in terms of threat level, to the same creature with 100 hit points and no fast healing, then the system is beyond idiotic. You simply can't go by raw stats alone; the system has to leave room to consider special abilities, particularly given the exception-based nature of 4E.

 

[Mengu]

I wasn't aware there were rules specifying the stats of elite creatures. In fact, I'm virtually certain there are no such rules

All the sample monsters we've seen follow the guideline of Elites get 2x HP, Solos get 5x HP. That's not to say there can't be exceptions, but the pattern seems to hold based on the preview material.