Excerpt: Swarms

[jaer]

I read the article introduction. I read the description of swarms.

They are different from the 3.5 swarms how, exactly?

- Large whole composed of smaller creatures? Check.
- Deals damage to all creatures within their area? Check.
- Difficult to kill with regular weapons? Check.
- Special effects based on the creature? Check.

The only new things are:
- Immunity to forced movement (makes sense since forced movement is a big part of 4e combat).
- Size reduced from "shapeable Large" to "Medium".

It'd make more sense if the text said: "We took the 3.5 rules for swarms and added a couple of special effects for the new types of swarms we created".

So you believed that WotC was beseiged by swarm requests (swarmed by them, even) so much so that a swarm of protesters marched out to know how swarms worked?

And that they locked the designers in a room with 100,000 ants to better model swarms for a game and shoved their hands into boxes of scorpions?

If so, then I can understand whyy you believed that this was the "greatest stride forward with swarms" but if you saw those other statements as hyperbole, why would you assume that, in an article already written in an over-exaggerated tone, the paragraph about how much swarms have changed would not be an exaggeration as well.

Note this sentence alone: "Well, swarms are cool, but researching how we think swarms might actually work into D&D was not so cool." We know the marketing team (and I'm sure Mearls!) knows the "complaint" about over-using cool, but he did it twice in one sentence...you don't think that was on purpose as part of a joke?

Of course "3e bashing" would be blantant. That's the tone of the article: way over the top and not at all serious. The worst critisism (that wasn't an obvious hyperbole) of the old version of swarms was potential boredom (a 15th level fighter or rogue or range or paladin who needs to switch to a non-magic torch to fight a swarm is not very engaged in combat. Oh, right....at that level, you don't have a torch and swarms resist fire.)

Sure, they could have said "We took the 3.5 rules for swarms and added a couple of special effects for the new types of swarms we created" and just shown us the samples, but I, personnally, much perfer the time and effort put in to writing an entertaining and well-constructed intro.

 

[Mengu]

The Needlefang Drake Swarm is ridiculously dangerous. I just did a mock up battle in a 10 ft hallway between 4 Drake Swarms and 5 characters from the DDXP, namely Corrin, Kathra, Erais, Skamos, Riardon. 500 XP encounter for five 1st level characters should not be terribly difficult. However, it was just about TPK, except Riardon ran for his life after the other 4 went down, and there were still 3 swarms. The characters used their daily and encounter abilities, as well as action points, to no veil. Skamos whiffed on 4 attack rolls the first round, and after that was targetting 2 swarms at a time, and managed to hit one a round (which is about average).

Combination of Pull Down, extra damage vs prone target, and Swarm Attack just destroyed the party. Kathra was the only one who could sometimes resist the knockdown, and so was able to stay standing the longest.

Honestly the fight against these swarms was shorter than a fight against the level 4 solo lurker dragon.

4 drake swarms were not an appropriate encounter against a party at full power. I will try again with 3 swarms, and see how that goes.

 

[Lizard]

Best thing is... you can write those up as powers for a particular swarm.

Infest Armour (free, on a hit; encounter)

When the swarm occupies the same square as an armoured target and scores a hit, it can infest the targets armour.

While infesting the armour the swarm gains Immunity melee and ranged and is no longer Vulnerable to Area and Close attacks. In addition, the swarm moves with the target if it chooses, and always has combat advantage against its target.

So the only way to fight it is by fireballing your own guy?

Dude, you're a bastard DM.

I like you.

 

[Mort_Q]

Yeah.... well.... that was off the cuff without knowing how hard it would be for a PC to take off their armour (with or without help). I'm not very simulationist... I like the thought of making the brave Paladin have a get them off of me... arrrggghhh moment.

Alternatively, we could have the Player and the Swarm split damage while the Infest Armour is in play.

Without numbers, it's hard to know what's balanced. Nice and cinematic though.

 

[Celebrim]

The Needlefang Drake Swarm is ridiculously dangerous. I just did a mock up battle in a 10 ft hallway between 4 Drake Swarms and 5 characters from the DDXP, namely Corrin, Kathra, Erais, Skamos, Riardon. 500 XP encounter for five 1st level characters should not be terribly difficult. However, it was just about TPK, except Riardon ran for his life after the other 4 went down, and there were still 3 swarms. The characters used their daily and encounter abilities, as well as action points, to no veil. Skamos whiffed on 4 attack rolls the first round, and after that was targetting 2 swarms at a time, and managed to hit one a round (which is about average).

You mean that 4 Drake Swarms are a much more difficult fight than 500 XP worth of zombie minions? This isn't possible. The math... it's been fixed?!?!? We've been promised that the game is so rock solid it doesn't need an experienced DM anymore. They promised!?!?! Waaaahhhh.

Seriously, two of these swarms seem like a big deal vs. a 1st level party. They generate multiple attacks (read, multiple actions). They effectively have double the normal hitpoints for a creature of thier level. They do damage per attack comparable to creatures several levels higher than they are. And they are fast and highly mobile. And a controller in the party seems like an utter necessity to fight them successfully.

 

[catsclaw227]

Skipping over the usual "3e was t3h suxx0r!" introduction, ...

Well, I would say "usual" is not accurate. Mostly they have been saying that after years of play, 3e had it's flaws. Have you seen any statement by a WOTC employee stating that 3e sucked?

Either way, the article was oozing hyperbole and they even treaded on the "cool" ground twice in one sentence. It sounds like Mearls was having fun with all the internet rage over their marketing efforts.

EDIT: ninja'd by jaer!

And actually, looking back as a whole, their marketing has been pretty good. There's some serious momentum right now leading up to June launch.

My take on the swarms? Swarms were just OK for me and my group, and once they fought their first and second swarms, they really were boring for us. I like these swarms. They are nasty, difficult to kill, the aura is an example of great design with regards to showing how you have to "get inside" them to deal with them.

Good stuff. I can't wait to use them.

 

[keterys]

I popped onto this thread to register a complaint that the needlefang looks completely unbalanced compared to what I've seen (and trust me, I'm paying attention)... and looks like I've been well beat to the punch.

Still, most things have looked okay even when slightly questionable (Hill Giant, for instance), but this one is a huge red flag, especially as a soldier with high defenses.

 

[Agamon]

A lot better than "We'd rather be EATEN ALIVE BY ANTS than play 3e!"

Erm...correct me if I'm mistaken, but Mike looked to be writing very tongue-in-cheek throughout the article.

I agree a couple early articles were bad this way, but it almsot seems like some people are searching for offence still. Everything he states implies that the 4e rule is better than the 3e rule, not that people that dare use the 3e rule are idiots.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

My thoughts now that I've gotten some (though not enough ) sleep in me:

The article itself seems very poorly written. But honestly, that aside, I think these swarms ARE an improvement over the 3e ones. It might take a little tweaking to get multiple swarms to move like the horrible blob of swarming swarminess that I think it should, or to add things like the nausea from "OH GOD THEY'RE ALL OVER ME,", but I think that'll only take a LITTLE tweaking, and that the overall effect of the new swarms is fantastic.

Someone mentioned earlier that four swarms was an almost guaranteed TPK. Thing is, I don't really have a problem with that . Personally, I think swarms are going to be used as those ancient temple traps that, ideally, you don't WANT to have to try and combat your way through - ideally, your party will go "OH SWEET JESUS" and will try to get the hell out of there and away from the hundreds of hungry scarabs. Really, swarms SHOULD take some really creative measures to kill, as they're a completely different animal (I'm not even going to try and make a pun here) then what adventurers are used to killing.

In the end, it strikes me as vaguely ironic that the one article I find to be the worst written is the one I've enjoyed the most . The only thing that could make swarms better is the quote of "I'M COVERED IN BEEEEEEEEEEEES," and I just made it, so BAM, it's perfect.

Side note: See you guys Monday

 

[dsmith9]

I am waiting to see a swarm of lemmings that push six squares as there only attack as they are running towards a cliff.