Excerpt: Weapons (MERGE)

FireLance said:
I'm a bit more optimistic. I see the potential for a feat that allows normal one-handed weapons to be used in the off hand.

True, I suppose that wouldn't be too bad. But without two attacks for TWF, it really isn't worth it unless you're a ranger. I don't like it when basic fighting options are specific class powers.

FireLance said:
I'm not sure about the "easily" done in real life, though - I've handled the long sword that my brother uses in his sword fighting classes and I think I'd have serious trouble fighting with one in each hand. To be fair, it's probably closer to a bastard sword in D&D terms, though.

An actual medieval broadsword would be more like a D&D bastard sword. A "longsword", as it is described, is much smaller. I have a sword like that hanging in my room, and it seems pretty easy to me to use. I don't think it would be very hard to use two at once. Anakin Skywalker used two lightsabers in the movie. Yeah, I know, it's a movie, but they did physically play out those scenes, with training and direction from professional sword fighters.

I shouldn't have used the word "easy," of course. I simply meant that, just as they admit anyone can pick up and swing a sword, anyone can pick up and swing two swords. It will obviously give penalties, but it can be done. And if it can be done at all by a normal person in real life, a fantasy hero should be able to do it with ease.

ainatan said:
Why should anyone wielding two weapons automatically get two attacks per turn?

Because someone wielding a weapon in each hand can (usually) strike with both in about the same amount of time that a person holding one weapon can. If you don't believe me, go pick up and hold two kitchen knives, and then tell me why you are somehow unable to stab with both of them at the same time. ;)
 
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FireLance said:
You might not necessarily get two attacks per turn, but I think there should be some advantage to fighting with two weapons because you're giving up a shield.
Not for rogues, archery rangers, wizards, or warlocks, unless they've got shield proficiencies I haven't noticed. If you don't have shield proficiency, then adding some intrinsic benefit to dual-wielding makes it a no-brainer choice for a class to wield two weapons.
 

Shroomy said:
Well, its a two-handed weapon and I bet access is pretty much restricted to the fighter class without feats.
I'm fairly certain we had a cleric using one in one of the first previews, the one about the red dragon. . .
 

I am VERY happy for the decision to make thrown weapons into two categories.

The reason? Because thrown weapons in 3.5 blew chunks.

Why would a fighter ever use a weapon where his to hit was determined by his dex, and give up his big strength? There's a reason the "power throw" feat was invented.

With this version thrown weapons are much more useful. Because you get the double bang for your buck from either a high strength or high dex.
 

Cirex said:
I remember reading that lances pushed the opponent and stuff like that. I was hoping for more information on that.
From the Paragon Paths article:

Paragon feat
Spear Push Str 15, Dex 13 Add 1 square to distance pushed with spear or polearm.

Polearms and spears push. A lance is probably qualified as 'spear'.
 

Ximenes088 said:
Not for rogues, archery rangers, wizards, or warlocks, unless they've got shield proficiencies I haven't noticed.

All of those you mention have a different advantage - range.

Ximenes088 said:
If you don't have shield proficiency, then adding some intrinsic benefit to dual-wielding makes it a no-brainer choice for a class to wield two weapons.

Not when it incurs penalties.
 

Majoru Oakheart said:
The "common" way of looking at these weapons(which may or may not be actually correct in reality) is different. The way the "average" person thinks of these weapons is as follows:

Axes are weapons designed to be heavy and cut things. They have a large striking surface, so they do a lot of damage. They chop off limbs and pierce deep into someone when they hit.

Hammers are heavy, but they are blunt. They stun people and knock them around.

Maces are light and blunt. They don't have the massive hitting power to knock people around. They are used by clerics or other people without military training.

Flails have chains so they can be used to wrap around things, disarm, and trip.

Picks are piercing, but low damaging. They have a small striking surface but they pierce extra deep.

They are categories by their game effects. In the case of Whip and Scythe, you simply need to see what gave effect the average person expects them to have(hint, flail and axe).
I don't really agree with this logic... First, you really need to split hairs in order to create these definitions. Second, I don't agree that they are necessarily "common" conceptions.

First, I do agree that the flail deserves to be something different, simply because it has a chain. Actually, I would almost prefer it if it were the 'Whip" or "Chain" category, and flails in particular used both "Mace" and "Chain" as its group. At the very least, I would prefer to describe an videogame-style Snake Sword as a Light Blade/Chain rather than a Light Blade/Flail...

Getting to my main point... Even in your distinction, the difference between Maces and Hammers is neither logical or consistent. Why should hammers be "heavy" and maces be "light" when normal nail-hitting hammers are common and lightweight and maces can often be very heavy and large? Further, why should weight be the distinguishing factor for hammers and maces when axes can easily vary from small throwing axes to very heavy great-axes?

Another question is why should maces, picks, and axes be differentiated based on the kind of damage they inflict, when rapiers, knives, and broadswords all count as "Blades" even though their specific use and method of inflicting harm can vary so widely?

Fundamentally, warhammers, military picks, and maces all share the same combat function: ripping apart or punching through armor. I really don't quite see why they would need to be differentiated on a mechanical level. I can possibly see axes being used in a different manner, but I don't see why you would use different powers depending on whether you were using a mace or a hammer.

As I said before, I really like the idea of weapon groups and how they are going to be used in 4E, but this implementation just seems a bit clunky, even to a guy like me whose main familiarity with different kinds of weapon comes mostly from videogames.
 

In real life, you wouldn't be able to use two weapons unless they were BOTH short, unless you had proper training. If you haven't had any teaching or training, trying to use two weapons, both short, is difficult, and trying to do it with one long is near impossible. Trying to do it with both long makes you a bigger danger to yourself then your enemy.

That said, everything about 4e has been meant to show even level one adventurers as being incredibly more powerful then random peasants, so I'd assume the more martial based classes have had enough training to at least be able to hold a weapon in the other hand and not kill themselves with it. However, giving NO bonus for it seems a bit on the dumb side. Allow characters with a light weapon in the offhand but no power to at least get a bonus to attacks of opportunity, or something like that - show that, while they very much have an offhand, it's not just waving around uselessly.
 

I keep reading "only the ranger gets TWF" from various posts, but I have seen nothing in a WotC release that gave me that impression. Has WotC said that, or are we basing this supposition on the lack of seeing a TWF feat or power choice for any any other class. We have only seen a handful of feats, so it might be early to jump to such a conclusion.
 

Falling Icicle said:
Because someone wielding a weapon in each hand can (usually) strike with both in about the same amount of time that a person holding one weapon can. If you don't believe me, go pick up and hold two kitchen knives, and then tell me why you are somehow unable to stab with both of them at the same time. ;)
I'm sorry, but this is just wrong, as anyone who has any sort of experience with swordsmanship will tell you.

Two weapons does NOT allow you to attack faster or more times per round in a typical fight than someone with one weapon. What two weapons CAN do, however, is give you more options on offense and defense, cross-parries, attacks against two different parts of the body at once, etc.

Florentine fencing (rapier/dagger) uses the dagger almost entirely for defense. Any actual attacks with the dagger are when locked in close quarters, and only when the opportunity presents itself.
 

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