D&D (2024) Two Weapon Fighting and Nick article

[Belen]

Wargamer Two Weapon fighting and Nick

Please tell me that they did not make weapon swapping this stupid in 5.5!!!

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Seems like this will give me migraines.

 

[Thommy H-H]

Okay, so if I'm following all these interactions properly:

• Wielding two Light weapons lets you make an extra attack with one of those weapons as a bonus action (no bonus damage from your ability modifier).
• The Nick weapon mastery (found on scimitars, among other things) lets you make the extra attack granted by Light as part of the same Attack action, freeing up your bonus action.
• The Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style feat lets you add your ability modifier to damage for the extra attack from Light.
• The Dual Wielder feat, in a change from the playtest, now makes no mention of the extra attack from Light, instead it simply allows you to make an extra attack as a bonus action with a melee weapon that isn't two-handed, as long as you attacked with a Light weapon.
• Extra Attack obviously lets you make extra attacks with the Attack action.
• The new rules for weapon swapping appear to handwave drawing and stowing, letting you do both as part of an attack.

So, if you have two scimitars, you would normally be able to attack twice as part of the Attack action (because Nick), plus however many Extra Attacks you have. If you then take Dual Wielder, you can attack again with your bonus action. If you have TWF, you get to add your ability modifier to the damage, but only for the attacks you make with the Attack action (Dual Wielder doesn't interact with TWF). In theory though, you could swap out your scimitar for a longsword and actually use it with two hands (it's versatile, not two-handed, technically) for 1d10 damage, rather than the 1d6 of a rapier.

Of course, a longsword isn't finesse, so you'd have to be Strength-based to get the maximum efficiency from this combo, and invest a whole feat in it. It would seem more efficient to just do fewer attacks that add your ability bonus to the damage, rather than construct your entire build around getting an average of 2 points of extra damage per turn.

A level 5, Str 20 scimitar fighter with DW and TWF would (without Action Surge) do three attacks at 1d6 + 5 dmg, plus an extra cheeky longsword attack for 1d10 dmg. Average = 29 dmg.

By contrast, the same fighter with a greatsword would make two attacks at 2d6 + 5 dmg, for 24 dmg, but would also have two additional feat slots, one of which could be Great Weapon Master which adds a flat +6 dmg bonus and lets you attack again if you kill an opponent.

I guess the scimitar/longsword blender is more useful for crit fishing, but it's a pretty marginal gain imo.

 

[FrogReaver]

Okay, so if I'm following all these interactions properly:

• Wielding two Light weapons lets you make an extra attack with one of those weapons as a bonus action (no bonus damage from your ability modifier).
• The Nick weapon mastery (found on scimitars, among other things) lets you make the extra attack granted by Light as part of the same Attack action, freeing up your bonus action.
• The Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style feat lets you add your ability modifier to damage for the extra attack from Light.
• The Dual Wielder feat, in a change from the playtest, now makes no mention of the extra attack from Light, instead it simply allows you to make an extra attack as a bonus action with a melee weapon that isn't two-handed, as long as you attacked with a Light weapon.
• Extra Attack obviously lets you make extra attacks with the Attack action.
• The new rules for weapon swapping appear to handwave drawing and stowing, letting you do both as part of an attack.

So, if you have two scimitars, you would normally be able to attack twice as part of the Attack action (because Nick), plus however many Extra Attacks you have. If you then take Dual Wielder, you can attack again with your bonus action. If you have TWF, you get to add your ability modifier to the damage, but only for the attacks you make with the Attack action (Dual Wielder doesn't interact with TWF). In theory though, you could swap out your scimitar for a longsword and actually use it with two hands (it's versatile, not two-handed, technically) for 1d10 damage, rather than the 1d6 of a rapier.

Of course, a longsword isn't finesse, so you'd have to be Strength-based to get the maximum efficiency from this combo, and invest a whole feat in it. It would seem more efficient to just do fewer attacks that add your ability bonus to the damage, rather than construct your entire build around getting an average of 2 points of extra damage per turn.

Interesting.

A level 5, Str 20 scimitar fighter with DW and TWF would (without Action Surge) do three attacks at 1d6 + 5 dmg, plus an extra cheeky longsword attack for 1d10 dmg. Average = 29 dmg.

Why start with a long sword. First attack can be a great sword right?

I’m also not seeing why the dual wield bonus attack wouldn’t add mod damage?

By contrast, the same fighter with a greatsword would make two attacks at 2d6 + 5 dmg, for 24 dmg, but would also have two additional feat slots, one of which could be Great Weapon Master which adds a flat +6 dmg bonus and lets you attack again if you kill an opponent.

Isn’t it just the cost of 1 feat dual wield vs GWM.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Why start with a long sword. First attack can be a great sword right?

So you can hold a shield the whole time
Ignore me I can't read.

 

[Belen]

So you can hold a shield the whole time
Ignore me I can't read.

Implication is that yes, you can hold a shield and hot swap weapons.

 

[Thommy H-H]

Why start with a long sword. First attack can be a great sword right?

Yes, actually, you could use the greatsword for your regular attack, switch to a scimitar for Extra Attack (+Light/Nick attack), then back to greatsword for your DW bonus action attack.

I’m also not seeing why the dual wield bonus attack wouldn’t add mod damage?

Dual Wielder specifies it doesn't. Sorry, should have included that. TWF also only affects the attack you get from the Light property, which the Dual Wielder attack isn't - it's a totally separate bonus action attack, that just happens to require you to have attacked already with a Light weapon. I assume this is actually why the playtest wording was changed, because it's the only actual difference in the two implementations I can see (besides this whole thing with switching weapons that we're talking about).

Isn’t it just the cost of 1 feat dual wield vs GWM.

Depends if you want to add your Str bonus to the damage for your extra scimitar attack from Light.

Basically, I think it's all possible, I just don't think it's ever going to be worth it.

 

[Thommy H-H]

Oh, actually, it turns out the rules for drawing and stowing weapons are no different from before, from what I can tell. So you can in fact only equip or unequip one weapon as part of making an attack with it. So no switching from greatsword to rapiers and back again.

Also, Dual Wielder specifies that you have to make the Bonus Action attack later in the turn, after attacking with a Light weapon. So even less leeway for shenanigans!

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes, actually, you could use the greatsword for your regular attack, switch to a scimitar for Extra Attack (+Light/Nick attack), then back to greatsword for your DW bonus action attack.

Nice.

Dual Wielder specifies it doesn't. Sorry, should have included that

Makes sense, thanks.

TWF also only affects the attack you get from the Light property, which the Dual Wielder attack isn't - it's a totally separate bonus action attack, that just happens to require you to have attacked already with a Light weapon.

This part made sense initially!

Depends if you want to add your Str bonus to the damage for your extra scimitar attack from Light.

Isn’t that a fighting style that the fighter gets as a class feature?

Basically, I think it's all possible, I just don't think it's ever going to be worth it.

I think nailing down the actual feat cost, and isn’t GWM feat proficiency bonus damage - meaning for most of play it’s probably +3 damage?

in general more attacks is an improvement over less even at the same total damage.

 

[mellored]

Why start with a long sword. First attack can be a great sword right?

So you can use Dex.
And possibly a shield depending on the swapping rules.

Otherwise Greatsword + Polearm Master would do more damage.

I’m also not seeing why the dual wield bonus attack wouldn’t add mod damage?

The feat says not to add the mod.

Just a 1d8+0 attack as a bonus action, with "attack with a Light weapon" prerequisite.

Doesn't interact with TWF or Nick at all.

Haven't seen the rest of the rules.