Expanded ECL rules!

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

Are you insane?! Are you saying that having a natural strength of 28 doesn't mean anything at all in terms of ECL?! C'mon, you can't possibly believe that! That's insane and completely throws the whole system off!

Think about it . . . Humans are normal, they have 10 in everything. What if you created an ENTIRELY new race that was similar to humans except they had darkvision (instead of an extra feat), had +2 to Listen, Search, and Spot like elves (instead of extra skill points), and had stats of Str 20, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10, giving characters a +10 to strength during character creation? They're similar to humans, but with A LOT of strength . . . Doing it your way, it would have no ECL modifier!

Basically, the problem with doing it THAT way is that you run into the problem of what to do when you create an entirely new race. How do you decide ECL for the new race? How much ECL do you assign for ability scores? Explain THAT.

Seriously, you gotta assign modifiers to ECL for ALL ability scores, as I outlined, otherwise none of it works! THAT'S why your system isn't working out as perfectly as you like!

I agree with you but that sort of long-winded approach rates an 8.5 on my tedious-ometer.

Perhaps +0.5 for every 5 ability points over 10?

Like I said I am leaving this for at least another week before returning to the whole issue. Then approach things from a fresh perspective.

 

[Knight Otu]

How about this:

A creature has a number of "free" ability increases (potentially based on racial HD). Anything above this number increases CR, anything below reduces CR.

Of course, that brings some problems - what about non-abilities?
Should mental abilities be treated differently?
How many "free" ability increases should a creature have based on racial HD?
...
...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Krust has cracked it!

Hi Knight Otu mate!

How about this:

A creature has a number of "free" ability increases (potentially based on racial HD). Anything above this number increases CR, anything below reduces CR.

Of course, that brings some problems - what about non-abilities?
Should mental abilities be treated differently?
How many "free" ability increases should a creature have based on racial HD?

Actually I think I have just cracked it - mainly due to Anubis getting me to pay attention to ability scores (thanks mate! ). All it took was a bit of modification and so far all tests are holding up to scrutiny (epic and non-epic). I'll do a few more tests over the next 24 hours but its looking positive. I'll post when I'm certain of a result.

Great effort all concerned.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Testing on the new system continues to go well.

One thing I have been trying out giving NPCs a -2 penalty to CR (not ECL you understand).

eg.
60th-level PC = CR35
60th-level NPC = CR33

The ELH suggests something like this as an optional rule - however because I already modify CR for high-levels I don't need to stack the bonuses as they do.

So this effectively says that a PC is equivalent to 2 NPCs of the same level.

What do you all think?

 

[Anubis]

Hi all!

Testing on the new system continues to go well.

One thing I have been trying out giving NPCs a -2 penalty to CR (not ECL you understand).

eg.
60th-level PC = CR35
60th-level NPC = CR33

The ELH suggests something like this as an optional rule - however because I already modify CR for high-levels I don't need to stack the bonuses as they do.

So this effectively says that a PC is equivalent to 2 NPCs of the same level.

What do you all think?

It would be simpler to just make a rule that gives NPCs and PCs the same wealth.

Oh, and about ability scores, your previous thought was nearly identical to mine.

You know in the DMG where it says that to find the "ability score bonus", you take the score from the normal monster and subtract 10 from even numbers or 11 from odd numbers? Well THAT is the number I use, and I give +1 ECL per 10 points of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, and then +1 ECL per 20 points of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma (because they're far less useful overall). Try that one out and see how it works. It's done well for me so far, I used that to make my Saiyan race.

 

[Celebrim]

"One thing I have been trying out giving NPCs a -2 penalty to CR (not ECL you understand)."

Maybe I'm not an expert opinion, but I tend to find that NPC classes are worth about half as much as PC classes when calculating CR. That is to say, that a 20th level NPC is at most (say he's a warior), equivalent to a CR 10 monster in challenge.

Really, that shouldn't be so suprising. A basic Orc is really a 1 HD warrior. CR is 1/2. A basic gnoll is really a 2 HD warrior. CR is 1. A basic Orge is really a 4 HD warrior with the extra advantage of being large. CR is 3. A human 20th level warrior is a CR 10 encounter in my experience.

A human 20th level Commoner isn't even that. We would probably be generous to assign CR 5.

"I give +1 ECL per 10 points of Strength, dexterity, or Constitution, and then +1 ECL per 20 points of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma."

I think that isn't being tough enough. I'd say at least +1 ECL for every 4 extra points combined of STR, DEX or CON, and perhaps every 6 extra points of INT, WIS, and CHR.

So if a hypothetical race has no other benifits (-1 ECL?), but has +4 to every attribute, I'd say that was a +4 ECL race. (+1 for +4 str, +1 for +4 dex, +1 for +4 con, +2 for +4 int,wis,chr (+12 combined), -1 base).

Of course, the real problem is that ECL doesn't scale well. The above hypothetical race isn't at 1st level equal to a 5th level human character in any regard, but the same race at 16th level probably is at least a match for a 20th level human character in most regards (assuming equal equipment).

 

[Knight Otu]

Celebrim, while your analysis of the NPC classes is really spot on, I believe Upper_Krust was talking about NPCs with PC classes.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

It would be simpler to just make a rule that gives NPCs and PCs the same wealth.

No, you can't do that for so many reasons.

Oh, and about ability scores, your previous thought was nearly identical to mine.

Hey! It was your idea that led me to sort this mess out once and for all - couldn't have done it without you mate!

You know in the DMG where it says that to find the "ability score bonus", you take the score from the normal monster and subtract 10 from even numbers or 11 from odd numbers? Well THAT is the number I use, and I give +1 ECL per 10 points of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, and then +1 ECL per 20 points of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma (because they're far less useful overall). Try that one out and see how it works. It's done well for me so far, I used that to make my Saiyan race.

I'm just detailing all ability scores the same across the board. Each ability score has its uses.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Celebrim mate!

Maybe I'm not an expert opinion, but I tend to find that NPC classes are worth about half as much as PC classes when calculating CR.

As my good friend Knight Otu mentioned I was commenting on NPCs with PC classes.

That is to say, that a 20th level NPC is at most (say he's a warior), equivalent to a CR 10 monster in challenge.

I totally agree. In fact in the revised system thats how I have the NPC classes; except Commoners.

Really, that shouldn't be so suprising. A basic Orc is really a 1 HD warrior. CR is 1/2. A basic gnoll is really a 2 HD warrior. CR is 1. A basic Orge is really a 4 HD warrior with the extra advantage of being large. CR is 3. A human 20th level warrior is a CR 10 encounter in my experience.

A human 20th level Commoner isn't even that. We would probably be generous to assign CR 5.

I have the Commoner NPC class at 1/3 (round down).

"I give +1 ECL per 10 points of Strength, dexterity, or Constitution, and then +1 ECL per 20 points of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma."

I think that isn't being tough enough. I'd say at least +1 ECL for every 4 extra points combined of STR, DEX or CON, and perhaps every 6 extra points of INT, WIS, and CHR.

So if a hypothetical race has no other benifits (-1 ECL?), but has +4 to every attribute, I'd say that was a +4 ECL race. (+1 for +4 str, +1 for +4 dex, +1 for +4 con, +2 for +4 int,wis,chr (+12 combined), -1 base).

I have this as +0.5 per 5 points above 10. It seems to work okay, (so far) - though I admit if I was going to change things I would probably have them at +1/5 points above 10.

Of course, the real problem is that ECL doesn't scale well. The above hypothetical race isn't at 1st level equal to a 5th level human character in any regard, but the same race at 16th level probably is at least a match for a 20th level human character in most regards (assuming equal equipment).

Its easy for 1st-level characters to get unlucky.

 

[Anubis]

I'm just detailing all ability scores the same across the board. Each ability score has its uses.

I dunno . . . Considering how much more useful Str, Dex, and Con are, they should be valued more highly than Int, Wis, and Cha. Even the DMG states this directly.

Str effects how much one can lift and carry, melee attack and damage, and a whole assortment of other things. Dex effects AC, ranged attack, Reflex saves, and much more. Con, even more useful, effects the most important thing of all, hit points, along with Fortitude saves and other such things.

Int, Wis, and Cha are really only useful for Will saves and spellcasters. They has some very limited uses for other classes, but for the most part, these three do very little for the majority of characters.

See my point? Seeing as the DMG considers Str, Dex, and Con twice as useful as Int, Wis, and Cha, that is the basis for my reasoning.

Really, Cha is only useful for Paladins, Clerics, and Deities. Int is only really useful for spellcasters needing that as their main ability score. Wis, while more useful than Cha and Int, is only really useful for Will saves beyond the spellcasting needs.

Consider that, and consider also that a majority of things you encounter do not need these three scores. Thus, I lowered their value against ECL. I hope I have explained my reasoning well enough. Remember that even with +1 or -1, you get that minimum +1 or -1 to ECL. Test it out, you'll see what I mean.