Experience Points & Level Advancement Rate

[CleanCutRogue]

First off, let me say that I'm one to claim there are certain sacred cows to D&D... things that have just always been there. For instance, ability scores should be 3-18, even though we only use the modifier for things now. Spells are memorized or prepared in a "Vancian" system. Halflings are a core race. Things like that. But even though we've always had similar scale to XP-per-level and awards, this is one thing I've never considered a sacred cow.

In all editions of D&D we had this problem. The rate of level acquisition doesn't really change, despite artificially appearing to. It takes more XP to gain a level when you get higher level... but everything you do is worth more XP at that level. I even remember one edition of D&D stating quite clearly that "players should expect to raise a level every 3-5 sessions after the first few faster-obtained levels" or something to that effect. So why all the complexity??

Cases in point: In 2e they gave XP bonuses for doing class-like things. In 3e they offered bonuses for role-playing and story progression. In Basic/Advanced/2e they gave a bonus to earned XP for having a high ability score (as if that wasn't its own bonus)... there's always some construct around XP acquisition to try to make it function in a less munchkin way while still making it seem to scale and fit with the early edition's progression concepts. Basically, it all got silly. Why would a magic-user who is 11XP away from next level suddenly advance to next level because the fighter in the group let him keep three platinum pieces extra loot?? Who says one encounter with four goblins is worth the same experience points as another four, with different conditions and situations?

So here's my suggestion. I've used it for years and I give it freely to the forum and hopefully to WotC:

Each level costs 10XP + desired level, period. That's right, level 2 costs 12XP. Level 3 costs 13XP, easy as that. After each session go through the following checklist for each player. The most you can get is 10XP in one session but I've never had any player get all ten:

• SURVIVAL: +1 XP just for living through the session.
• ABILITY: +1 XP for making one or more ability checks during the session (successful or not).
• SKILL: +1 XP for making one or more Skill checks during the session (successful or not).
• DISCOVERY: +1 XP if the player can state one previously unknown thing about the setting, story, or people of the setting.
• ROLE-PLAYING: +1 XP if the player role-played exceptionally well, especially if his character endured losses by making choices that kept him in-character.
• INNOVATION: +1 XP if the player showed innovation overcoming one or more non-combative obstacles.
• NOTORIETY: +1 XP if the character's deeds were witnessed by anyone who will help tell the tale of his activities - whether fame or infamy it doesn't matter.
• PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT: +1 XP if the story involved something personal to the character, or if the character's background story evolved and he took part in its evolution.
• VICTORY: +1 XP if the session included one or more combative encounters which posed a reasonable challenge to the characters (whether it ended in victory or defeat).
• SUCCESS: +1 XP if the session ended in success of the character's imposed or assumed mission.

Simplifies things... no munchkinism... no unrealistic constructs or scaling to deal with... no record keeping... no lists of XP values for activities or items... and - one of my most prominent complains about modern editions - leaves the DM as authority over how they're dolled out without rules lawyering getting in the way.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Frankly, I would be quite happy to cut XP out of the game and just level up arbitrarily. That's pretty common in practice as it is, especially for people whose games don't match the assumptions that underly the XP system. XP are abstract and don't really serve much of a purpose except to pace the game, which is the DM's job anyway.

If you're looking to make a game more simple, this is a great place to cut down on complexity.

I doubt completely ditching XP will fly though. If you must have XP, this is a pretty good way of doing it. Simple, story-based, freeform, and not a lot of math.

Each level costs 10XP + desired level, period. That's right, level 2 costs 12XP. Level 3 costs 13XP, easy as that. After each session go through the following checklist for each player. The most you can get is 10XP in one session but I've never had any player get all ten:


SURVIVAL: +1 XP just for living through the session.
ABILITY: +1 XP for making one or more ability checks during the session (successful or not).
SKILL: +1 XP for making one or more Skill checks during the session (successful or not).
DISCOVERY: +1 XP if the player can state one previously unknown thing about the setting, story, or people of the setting.
ROLE-PLAYING: +1 XP if the player role-played exceptionally well, especially if his character endured losses by making choices that kept him in-character.
INNOVATION: +1 XP if the player showed innovation overcoming one or more non-combative obstacles.
NOTORIETY: +1 XP if the character's deeds were witnessed by anyone who will help tell the tale of his activities - whether fame or infamy it doesn't matter.
PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT: +1 XP if the story involved something personal to the character, or if the character's background story evolved and he took part in its evolution.
VICTORY: +1 XP if the session included one or more combative encounters which posed a reasonable challenge to the characters (whether it ended in victory or defeat).
SUCCESS: +1 XP if the session ended in success of the character's imposed or assumed mission.

 

[DonTadow]

Frankly, I would be quite happy to cut XP out of the game and just level up arbitrarily. That's pretty common in practice as it is, especially for people whose games don't match the assumptions that underly the XP system. XP are abstract and don't really serve much of a purpose except to pace the game, which is the DM's job anyway.

If you're looking to make a game more simple, this is a great place to cut down on complexity.

I doubt completely ditching XP will fly though. If you must have XP, this is a pretty good way of doing it. Simple, story-based, freeform, and not a lot of math.

Put me in this catagory. Cant' even remember the last time I even used the XP chart. I would like for it to be optional. The OP is right. XP is an artificial thing, why treat it with such importance.

 

[CleanCutRogue]

Put me in this catagory. Cant' even remember the last time I even used the XP chart. I would like for it to be optional. The OP is right. XP is an artificial thing, why treat it with such importance.

I still think you need some sort of system, even if it's lite and story-based like I provided as a suggestion in the original post. Experienced DMs can hand out levels on a more arbitrary basis, sure. But we don't want DnDNext to only appeal to existing experienced DMs and players, right? It has to grow and get new people involved in our great hobby. my 2 cents

 

[RHGreen]

I could happily get rid of the XP for kill sacred cow, even though it was originally XP for gold.

It forces players to systematically search out every monster and kill it even if they have absolutely no need to. Technically players can defeat an encounter by other means, but a lot of encounters, ideally, should be completely avoidable without worrying about lost XP. I much prefer the idea of XP for goal completion. And like computer games (I know - sacrilege) I want better goal completion = better XP reward = better results (or better ending as in Bad ending, Good Ending, Best Ending etc)

 

[Stormonu]

Can we move getting XP for killing creatures to be an "optional" rule.

I like that in 4E you can use encounter budgets to select a group of creatures that fit the "difficulty" you want, but can we divorce said budgets from the amount of XP you get?

I'd rather see that story and personal goal progress better determine XP. Quest awards, Milestone awards, Story awards, Individual Class awards, Roleplaying awards I feel are better ways of handing out XP than "you beat this trap or that monster" laser-focused approach.

Likewise, varying XP needed for different classes isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't like arbitrary level-up in that it doesn't reward those who do more and over-rewards those who do less.

Elegant though it is, were I to use the [MENTION=51922]CleanCutRogue[/MENTION] system as presented the characters in my game would gain probably 5-8 ExP per session and thus be up to a ridiculous level after just a couple of years. As I expect my game to last much longer than that, I need a Plan B.

Lanefan

Edit: having the party all be the same level is not at all important.

 

[Fanaelialae]

XP and leveling are one of the subsystems I'm least concerned about. There are nearly infinite ways of handling this, and at most they only require a little math (or no math, if you just level when the DM tells you to).

They can easily create freeform systems, fast leveling systems, slow leveling systems, start-fast-end-slow leveling systems, systems that reward role-play, systems that reward combat, systems that reward goal-attainment, combinations thereof, and much much more.

I expect they'll have plenty of options in this regard.

 

[Ahnehnois]

XP and leveling are one of the subsystems I'm least concerned about.

The only thing that really concerns me about XP is the message it sends. The 3.5 XP system inherently senet several messages. That combat was the primary means of advancement. That 13.3 distinct combat encounters were required to gain a level. That battles should be "balanced" by matching certain creatures with a party of a certain level. I don't want to see new DMs essentially being told that these things are necessary.

Thus, for XP I'm advocating options-and minimalism.

 

[KidSnide]

I agree that xp is a good place for an overhaul. They key to xp is that it has to be tied to the goals of the campaign. If the purpose of the campaign is combat, then the 3e/4e system makes sense. If the purpose of the campaign is gaining treasure, then the 1e mechanism makes sense.

In a tightly plotted adventure path, xp should be earned by completing plot objectives. Less tightly plotted games can also use objective xp: the players set a goal and the GM decides how much xp it's worth regardless off how the PCs get there. In a more story driven game, xp can be earned by creating and resolving interesting conflicts or by playing a character.

-KS