D&D General Experience Points & Leveling: A Brief Primer on XP in the 1e DMG, and Why It Still Matters

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If the clerics couldn't cut it, then it is pretty unlikely that some fighters were going to fare much better. I mean, assuming you got some incredibly lucky die rolls and got a % strength, AND a better than 16 CON, then sure, you are probably substantially stronger in melee than most clerics. OTOH a cleric with a 17 to thrown into STR or CON (since the 18 will be in WIS) won't be a wimp either. Obviously if you roll a lot of high hit die rolls, with the high CON, you could have some pretty stupid hit points for your level too, and again that's great, but you have to assume equally exceptional characters on both sides of that comparison.
Basic fighter vs basic cleric in melee anytime after about 1st level is going to favour the fighter. Better to-hit, a few more h.p., but most importantly better weapons to do damage with especially vs large opponents, because after mace a cleric's weapon options are kinda thin. Chuck weapon spec. as written* on to that fighter as well and there's no comparison at all.

* - assuming non-extreme Con. Fighters get a better per-level bonus once Con gets to 17 or higher.
** - we use a modified version of weapon spec. where the benefits come in gradually as you level up and never get as good as UA has them, and even that modified version makes a difference.
So, yes, some individual fighters will be 'better at melee than any cleric', but most will just be slightly better on average. Then factor in that the cleric heavy party is always healed, and once you hit 3rd will also have a bunch of other utility 'buffs' and such. You can construct corner cases, but when putting together a party you don't mostly go with corner cases, you go with "what normally works, and will handle the unexpected well" and that kind of party ALWAYS has more casters.
Our usual rule of thumb is that you can never have too many fighters. You can also never have too many clerics, I suppose, but if your party's mostly thieves and mages with no starch then the first area-of-effect damage you meet could wipe you out.
 

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Hussar

Legend
Most cleric were second line fighters guarding the back of the group. High AC, relatively good HP (even if average HP was not a guarantee, a high roll could be there, a low roll was not an automatic thing. The laws of probabilities still apply mate). TClerics could usually hold their own if push came to shove. A good mace was always a plus, especially if it was magical.
My problem is @Hellditch - you started out with dismissing the experience of others. Your very first words were to dismiss anyone who had a different experience than you.

For example, you talk about how HP aren't guaranteed. That's true. Then you talk about the fighter with less than average HP. Thing is, it is EXACTLY equally likely that a fighter would have MORE than average HP. So, with all your experience, you should have seen exactly the same number of characters with more than and less than average HP. One would be no more likely than the other and neither would be particuarly noteworthy. Yet, you make it sound like most characters had less than average HP with your examples.

Now, I will absolutely agree on the rings thing. Fair enough. At least you're not banging the drum that no one ever found magic items in AD&D. That's a pleasant change.

But, again, my point is, your first claim - "Nice analysis. But way off in what was really happening at tables." is simply confirmation bias. The plural of anecdote is not data and it doesn't really matter what you experienced. Let's actually keep to what's in the books shall we?
 

Hussar

Legend
I do have a question though. Back in the day, we did use training, but, we always had the PC's continue to gain XP, until a maximum of 1 point of xp below the next level. Where did we come up with that house rule? Was that a house rule? I know you cannot gain 2 levels, but, I always thought you'd continue gaining xp but, then hit a ceiling of one less than the next level beyond.

Where did we come up with that? Was that a B/E D&D rule? I was pretty sure it was a rule. And it was certainly how we played. And, it was something that never got questioned when I started playing with other groups too, so, it seemed to be a pretty common house rule if it was.

I'm just not sure where it came from.
 

My problem is @Hellditch - you started out with dismissing the experience of others. Your very first words were to dismiss anyone who had a different experience than you.

For example, you talk about how HP aren't guaranteed. That's true. Then you talk about the fighter with less than average HP. Thing is, it is EXACTLY equally likely that a fighter would have MORE than average HP. So, with all your experience, you should have seen exactly the same number of characters with more than and less than average HP. One would be no more likely than the other and neither would be particuarly noteworthy. Yet, you make it sound like most characters had less than average HP with your examples.

Now, I will absolutely agree on the rings thing. Fair enough. At least you're not banging the drum that no one ever found magic items in AD&D. That's a pleasant change.

But, again, my point is, your first claim - "Nice analysis. But way off in what was really happening at tables." is simply confirmation bias. The plural of anecdote is not data and it doesn't really matter what you experienced. Let's actually keep to what's in the books shall we?
Both yes and no. I simply did what you did. Take time to read the other posts and you will see. At some point, if you do something; You allow others to do the same.

While your analysis is generally good. Some spells would be chosen beside CLW. Henchmen were a thing, especially at low level. I showed how a group would evolved. And that Hold Person was also a must at all level since the most dangerous enemies were opposing NPCs party. Bless would bring a fight to an end much sooner as a bonus to hit and save is desirable.

It is simply a matter of balancing pros and cons of having this or that spells.
 

I do have a question though. Back in the day, we did use training, but, we always had the PC's continue to gain XP, until a maximum of 1 point of xp below the next level. Where did we come up with that house rule? Was that a house rule? I know you cannot gain 2 levels, but, I always thought you'd continue gaining xp but, then hit a ceiling of one less than the next level beyond.

Where did we come up with that? Was that a B/E D&D rule? I was pretty sure it was a rule. And it was certainly how we played. And, it was something that never got questioned when I started playing with other groups too, so, it seemed to be a pretty common house rule if it was.

I'm just not sure where it came from.
It was a common house rule. But the DMG p86 clearly state that once you got the exp for your next level, you no longer gain any experience.

It was in a Dragon Magazine article that this rule was seen for the first time if I recall correctly but I can put my finger on the right one as my memory is a bit fuzzy on which issue it was.
 

TheSword

Legend
Games that start above 1st level. Also 4e was less zero to hero and more hero to demigod.
Ha ha, that is true. Though of course every campaign can start at higher levels.

4e is like a stretch in prison. I don’t talk about it, though it has made me into the man I am today. 😂
 

Marc_C

Solitary Role Playing
To 'solve' the training problem (returning to town/stopped gaining XPs) one of our DMs put a level in a mega-dungeon with group of adventurers who set up a training facility for other adventuring groups passing by. It was weird.
 


Nice theory crafting. Guess we ran things differently. It all depends on party size. Mine were usually around 6 players with a few henchmen. Having two clerics was not that uncommon and would open up the possibility of taking a bless spell or two. A full party of adventurers could be anywhere from 6 to12 people. Most henchmen were falling behind as the group rose to higher and higher levels but as the players were stronger, new strategies would open up and henchmen would go down in usage and would go down to one or two for a high level party.
I just repeat experience. I mean, sure every table did some things differently, nobody is going to dispute that. We had many idiosyncrasies in our play, although we did stick pretty closely to the published rules, aside from a couple of things like training, and maybe being a bit loose with tracking every single minor component expenditure and whatnot (I seem to recall that for a long period of time, probably more in 2e timeframe, we used something pretty close to 4e's "generic power source component" rule).

In terms of henchmen. Getting 1/2 XP is not that big a deal. Given the arithmetic series nature of XP tables you are only 1 level behind 'master' (but maybe 2 since you won't get the best items). That certainly makes such characters reasonably valuable at all levels. Hirelings obviously become useless past 3rd level or so however, though they might serve some clever purposes if you hire 100's of them (IE a small army). I think their main intended use at high levels was more to 'hold down the fort' or carry around the less generally useful spells and equipment that you might want to trot out now and then.
As for party composition, I do not doubt your analysis, but to each his own and sometimes you have to make do with what you got. Not all party are build with optimisation in mind, and the rolls might not go your way.
I would think that most parties were NOT built with optimization in mind. Many were piecemeal assembled in increments. Suitable ability score arrays of course mattered, though we pretty much always used Method I, so you were likely to be a passably good instance of one of the 'big 4' classes at the least. And obviously the various subclasses would appear and factor into things to a degree, though none of them is so radically different that it makes a huge difference. I think the Druid was probably the biggest oddball there, as they are not so good in melee but have an interesting spell load, yet lack healing right off the bat. Adding one to the party at 1st level is probably reducing capability a bit, but they are almost like a MC MU/Cleric past 2nd level.
As for thieves being terrible scouts at low level. Yep. Most thieves were elven. But human thieves and halflings thieves were also a thing and from level 6 an on, they were very good, or at least good enough to make them worthwhile as they rose in level faster than any other classes. Your MU/T quickly fell behind in thieving capacity as you neared level 9. At that point, you mu/t would simply use improved invisibility and haste to backstab any opponent to kingdomcome.
Yes, halflings are another good option, though they lack the +1 to-hit, magic resistances, and good infravision of the elf, a stout can see in the dark pretty well, and they do have a stealth rule, as well as dwarf-like resistances and some 'stonework skill'. Probably the best dungeon thief overall, though elves being able to see secret doors is pretty awesome.

Again, being a multi-class is not that much of a hindrance. You are 1 level behind in each class vs the other single-classed PCs, which is not a HUGE disadvantage. Demi-humans (non-thief ones) are borked at high levels anyway, so the "drag your dead maxed out class along" problem rarely matters much. Certainly in 1e the elven Fighter/Magic User is pretty nearly the ideal character. Obvious reason why 2e tried to nerf them a bit with their armor-casting rule (it worked somewhat).
As for the training rule
We used them. The only mod was that we allowed exp to go up to half the next level. So if you rose to level 2, you could accumulate half the experience for level 3. It was usually enough for everyone.
Yeah, I have seen that rule too. SOMEWHERE there were printed rules of this ilk, I swear. I know I read somewhere a rule about 1XP short of gaining 2 levels at the very least. It might have been some article or was it maybe in UA? Or maybe it was officially a 2e rule that we had just been using for a long time before 2e came out (2e is mostly codification of someone's house rules I have to assume, plus a but of tinkering).
 

Voadam

Legend
I do have a question though. Back in the day, we did use training, but, we always had the PC's continue to gain XP, until a maximum of 1 point of xp below the next level. Where did we come up with that house rule? Was that a house rule? I know you cannot gain 2 levels, but, I always thought you'd continue gaining xp but, then hit a ceiling of one less than the next level beyond.

Where did we come up with that? Was that a B/E D&D rule? I was pretty sure it was a rule. And it was certainly how we played. And, it was something that never got questioned when I started playing with other groups too, so, it seemed to be a pretty common house rule if it was.

I'm just not sure where it came from.

Moldvay Basic Page B22:

"MAXIMUM XP: A character should never be given enough XP in a single adventure to advance more than one level of experience. For example, if a beginning (0 XP) 1st level fighter earns 5000 XP (a rare and outstanding achievement), he or she should only be given 3999 XP, enough to place the character 1 XP short of 3rd level."
 

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