D&D General Experience Points & Leveling: A Brief Primer on XP in the 1e DMG, and Why It Still Matters
David Howery
Hero
Maybe if you look at it from a purely XP/level advancement/mathematical standpoint. But people were always willing to play them. And mages, in spite of their frailty at low levels. And thieves in spite of the less than glorious selection of magic items available. Because, in the end, all three are rather fun to play. Way back in my 1E gaming days, I always saw that people were least likely to want to play clerics. Because they don't get flashy MU spells or swords. Half the groups I was with had NPC clerics along just to have the healing power. Personally, I tried just about every class and subclass (except assassins and druids, never got into those) at one time or another, and had fun with all of them....
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
LFQW was a real thing, even in TSR D&D, yes. I mean, fighters get some nice stuff. It might even seem like in some games this is making them equally good and useful, but there are a few real issues:
The fighter needs magic items simply to keep doing his job. Imagine a hypothetical level 12 party with no items. The fighter's AC is the same as level 1, his damage output is 3x higher because of 3 attacks/round, but he probably cannot hit the really threatening creatures well at all! His THAC0 is now 9, but he may well be fighting creatures with AC as low as -4 (or even better) and they can hit him on an 8. He cannot really do anything he couldn't do at level 1, literally. Yes, he'll have about 10x the hit points, but the monsters he's taking on also have 10x the hit points, probably do 5x the damage, and have many special abilities. He can stand in front of the party and be a blocker, and will certainly kill lesser threats moderately well (his saves are really good too). Meanwhile the casters have gained radically increased and entirely novel capabilities, now having access to 6th level spells! The lack of items will make them vulnerable to attack as well, but they can avoid or negate attacks by casting. While items are gold to any PC, the casters are much less dependent.
The fighter's supposed main advantage, a 'stronghold' and followers, doesn't actually do THAT much for him in terms of practical personal power. The followers are mostly FAR below his level, so they serve little purpose in an adventuring sense. The stronghold itself may be fun, and play into another power dynamic, but many campaigns, probably the vast majority, do little with this element. In fact, the stronghold is likely to be a 'trouble magnet', an obvious point of pressure for the DM to apply to the PC! Magic Users actually get far more real utility from their towers, they can store libraries and house potent henchmen there who can help with item construction, spell research, scroll manufacture, etc. While the tower might also prove troublesome, it has genuine level-appropriate advantages. To add insult to injury, clerics get strongholds too, and they are also potent casters...
Frankly, at 12th level, again, a party is better off made entirely of casters with the role of melee defense taken up by a carefully cultivated cadre of henchmen and NPC associates. The main purpose of such being simply to insure that the casters don't need to melee and to perhaps deal with some secondary threats directly. This also supplies needs for things like scouts and whatnot (not to say it isn't fun to play a PC who is in that role, they could then have an NPC caster as a henchman too). But that just shows, the best tactic for a fighter would be to hire a Magic User when he's maybe 3rd level and make sure that sucker gets protected and fed some decent items. That way, at high levels he'll have a caster at his back who is nearly his level. The obvious alternative tactic being the ever-popular Elf Fighter/Magic User, though at 12th level the value of that option does start to decline, assuming you play that high.
I mean, my experience, with a reasonable amount of items and players who played hard and used every advantage (and DMs who were consequently diabolical) was that straight up fighters pretty much disappear from parties after name level. My 14th level wizard for example would have basically no use for a fighter. He's flying, invisible, stone skinned, displaced, wearing a robe of eyes, has an AC below 0 most of the time, etc. He's got multiple items that can generate medium to high powered attacks, so he is unlikely to run out of spells or need a 'clean up guy' to save him from using them. Sure, his hit points are in the 30's, but no DM has ever yet caught him in AoE. I am pretty sure he's got some sort of fire resistance, though I don't recall exactly what that was. If things go really pear-shaped there is always Contingency
. Considering that the other PCs he'd be with on any dangerous mission would be equally powerful, well there are things like classic D&D demon lords which are downright nasty. We did kill one of those once, but it was stupid hard. Still, what would a fighter do against Demogorgon? There is a 0% chance he'd ever get to melee range unless he was loaded with magic, and probably that would involve the MUs helping out. Given old 2-head's AC and hit points, I don't think melee is going to be a decisive tactic, especially considering his extreme mobility (limitless tactical teleport, fun stuff).
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Yeah, now see, I agree with this. OTOH I found that the 4e approach of "make them all fun AND equal" was at least as good. I mean, why not? There was the objection that "4e doesn't have a stupid simple class to play", which I guess is a subjective sort of thing (Ranger is pretty dirt simple for instance) but OK. Anyway, we all played a variety of PCs. I did have one decent high level cleric, but I agree the class seems a bit less exciting than the fighter and magic user. Thieves are fun, but just WEAK. I did have an Assassin that got to decently high levels (9th or 10th, I forget) but he was just basically a fighter with some extra skills. I don't recall personally ever having a fighter that reached even name level, but I did play a couple of them in 4e and then it was more interesting.
David Howery
Hero
I'll have to take your word for that one... don't know a thing about 4E, never read any of the material....
Helldritch
Hero
Only a few things would make a wizard die fast.LFQW was a real thing, even in TSR D&D, yes. I mean, fighters get some nice stuff. It might even seem like in some games this is making them equally good and useful, but there are a few real issues:
The fighter needs magic items simply to keep doing his job. Imagine a hypothetical level 12 party with no items. The fighter's AC is the same as level 1, his damage output is 3x higher because of 3 attacks/round, but he probably cannot hit the really threatening creatures well at all! His THAC0 is now 9, but he may well be fighting creatures with AC as low as -4 (or even better) and they can hit him on an 8. He cannot really do anything he couldn't do at level 1, literally. Yes, he'll have about 10x the hit points, but the monsters he's taking on also have 10x the hit points, probably do 5x the damage, and have many special abilities. He can stand in front of the party and be a blocker, and will certainly kill lesser threats moderately well (his saves are really good too). Meanwhile the casters have gained radically increased and entirely novel capabilities, now having access to 6th level spells! The lack of items will make them vulnerable to attack as well, but they can avoid or negate attacks by casting. While items are gold to any PC, the casters are much less dependent.
The fighter's supposed main advantage, a 'stronghold' and followers, doesn't actually do THAT much for him in terms of practical personal power. The followers are mostly FAR below his level, so they serve little purpose in an adventuring sense. The stronghold itself may be fun, and play into another power dynamic, but many campaigns, probably the vast majority, do little with this element. In fact, the stronghold is likely to be a 'trouble magnet', an obvious point of pressure for the DM to apply to the PC! Magic Users actually get far more real utility from their towers, they can store libraries and house potent henchmen there who can help with item construction, spell research, scroll manufacture, etc. While the tower might also prove troublesome, it has genuine level-appropriate advantages. To add insult to injury, clerics get strongholds too, and they are also potent casters...
Frankly, at 12th level, again, a party is better off made entirely of casters with the role of melee defense taken up by a carefully cultivated cadre of henchmen and NPC associates. The main purpose of such being simply to insure that the casters don't need to melee and to perhaps deal with some secondary threats directly. This also supplies needs for things like scouts and whatnot (not to say it isn't fun to play a PC who is in that role, they could then have an NPC caster as a henchman too). But that just shows, the best tactic for a fighter would be to hire a Magic User when he's maybe 3rd level and make sure that sucker gets protected and fed some decent items. That way, at high levels he'll have a caster at his back who is nearly his level. The obvious alternative tactic being the ever-popular Elf Fighter/Magic User, though at 12th level the value of that option does start to decline, assuming you play that high.
I mean, my experience, with a reasonable amount of items and players who played hard and used every advantage (and DMs who were consequently diabolical) was that straight up fighters pretty much disappear from parties after name level. My 14th level wizard for example would have basically no use for a fighter. He's flying, invisible, stone skinned, displaced, wearing a robe of eyes, has an AC below 0 most of the time, etc. He's got multiple items that can generate medium to high powered attacks, so he is unlikely to run out of spells or need a 'clean up guy' to save him from using them. Sure, his hit points are in the 30's, but no DM has ever yet caught him in AoE. I am pretty sure he's got some sort of fire resistance, though I don't recall exactly what that was. If things go really pear-shaped there is always Contingency
Beholders
Rakshasa
Mind Flayers (as psionic was not magic...)
A high level fighter
A cleric with a nice dispel magic (no more protections)
A lich or Archmage with spell reflection or Mordenkainen's disjunction.
A group of adventurers
And...
The Crazed Kobold Corps. (Be very wary of them!)
Over the years, I have killed my share of "unkillable" wizards and groups. Sometimes with NPCs and monsters that were way lower than the "supposedly" invicible characters.
And magic items were there exactly to give the fighter a "fighting" chance to shine in the group. Magic items were not common, but could be found in enough amount to give a 12th level figther an average AC of -2 for 3 attacks and 1 for the rest of the attacks (Plate +2 and Shield +2 would be good). Then add a ring +2 and the AC is now -6/-1. Nah... the fighter was the shmook you seem to think he was. And with a flying potion he could reach your friendly wizard. And with a mere 11 of intelligence, your lowly 15th fighter had a 55% chance to know, yep, know the exact location of your invisible flying wizard. The higher the HD/Level, The higher the chance. Even at 12th level he'll have 25%. And once spotted/attacked, he only suffers a -4 to hit. And the rule do say that once attacked, the creature can always defend/attack the invisible creature albeit with a penalty to hit. Invisibility was not the perfect thing most people make it to be. (for the invisibility, DMG1e p.60). Many DM ignored this rule and that table.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Why does AC drop after 3 rounds? Shouldn't plate +2, shield +2 and Ring of Protection +2 be -4 AC the entire fight?
Voadam
Legend
Attacks per round, not combat.
AD&D PH Page 36:
"Armor types are given on the table below. Note that the inclusion of a shield raises armor class (AC) by a factor of 1 (5%), but that assumes attack from the front where the character can interpose it between himself and a blow.
— A small shield can be counted against only one attack per melee round.
— A normal-sized shield can effectively be counted against two attacks per melee round.
— A large shield is counted against up to three attacks per melee round.
Attacks from the right flank and rear always negate the advantage of the shield."
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Okay. Gotcha. I don't think we ever noticed that rule, or else we chose to ignore it early, because we certainly never played with it.
Undrave
Legend
The lore in 'The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea' is amazing! If you want to have adventures in the realm of the gods, it's probably the best source of inspiration. It's FULL of adventure and campaign ideas. And the cosmology is really cool.
I also like the lore in Primal Power, but it's probably too crunchy for a casual read.
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