D&D 5E Experience with a bladesinger?

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes, they realized melee was risky and so they buffed the Bladesinger's defenses...

...but they forgot to add any carrots (or whips) to have the Bladesinger actually enter melee!

The result is a Wizard that's excellent at spellcasting (as good as any other Wizard that isn't using any particular Tradition tricks) and why would one ever want to enter melee?

Any Bladesinger must be almost as good as a Fighter in melee (to actually do it) and significantly worse than a Wizard at regular spell-chucking (to make melee the rational choice).

This Bladesinger already exist. It's called Eldritch Knight.

I would imagine that few people who make a Bladesinger want to be slinging spells from range.


However, it is definitely a subclass that works better in an MC build, a lot of the time.

If you want to just be a bladesinger and you don't mind houserules, if you houserule a fix of some kind for the mostly wasted extra attack feature it becomes a working class. Like adding the smite spells to their spell list. Or replace extra attack with an ability to expend spell slots to add range to melee attacks.

But honestly, just play a warlock. seriously. I mean, you could mc wiz for the bladesong, I guess, but then you need a high weapon stat, high cha and decent enough wiz to make it worth it.

So, yeah...just play a warlock. You don't even have to take pact of the blade. The other ones get you either a pet or extra cantrips. If you wanna play a wizard with a sword, what better way than dealing death with a blade in one hand an a grimoire in the other?

 

[Celtavian]

If I were making a Bladesinger, I'd make a multiclass dex-based fighter (Eldritch Knight)/Wizard (Bladesinger). This combination captures the Bladesinger of the past very well. You really only need Bladesong from the Bladesinger abilities to be a Bladesinger. You get that very early on. If you make a Multiclass Wizard (Bladesinger)/Ftr Eldritch Knight with dex, you leverage Bladesong and fighting abilities to the point you can make a fighter that can blend melee magic and and martial ability. If you went 9 Wizard (Bladesinger) and 11 Ftr (Eldritch) Knight, you would have a powerful martial character that could engage in battle and cast up up to 5th level spells with three martial attacks per round and multiclass spell slots as a 12th level caster (13th if your DM fudges the rounding rules a little). That's why I've come to not mind the Bladesinger at this point. The Archetype does allow you to do make an old school type of Bladesinger that is very good in battle as a multiclass character, which was how the original archetype worked.

You could even get your AC crazy high. You can focus on three stats: Dex, Int, and Con. You max your dex to 20 and int to 20, you'll end up with a 17 AC in studded leather or 22 when bladesinging with three attacks. As a starting fighter, you'll have a good Con save. So you'll have amazing Concentration saving throws with a good Con save, intelligence added to the save, and possibly advantage for warcaster. That means you can make a very 2E style bladesinger as a multiclass character and be quite powerful and potent as a fighter/wizard bladesinger. And you'll be able to cast a cantrip at least and fire off an attack.

 

[Yavathol]

If I were making a Bladesinger, I'd make a multiclass dex-based fighter (Eldritch Knight)/Wizard (Bladesinger). This combination captures the Bladesinger of the past very well. You really only need Bladesong from the Bladesinger abilities to be a Bladesinger. You get that very early on. If you make a Multiclass Wizard (Bladesinger)/Ftr Eldritch Knight with dex, you leverage Bladesong and fighting abilities to the point you can make a fighter that can blend melee magic and and martial ability. If you went 9 Wizard (Bladesinger) and 11 Ftr (Eldritch) Knight, you would have a powerful martial character that could engage in battle and cast up up to 5th level spells with three martial attacks per round and multiclass spell slots as a 12th level caster (13th if your DM fudges the rounding rules a little). That's why I've come to not mind the Bladesinger at this point. The Archetype does allow you to do make an old school type of Bladesinger that is very good in battle as a multiclass character, which was how the original archetype worked.

You could even get your AC crazy high. You can focus on three stats: Dex, Int, and Con. You max your dex to 20 and int to 20, you'll end up with a 17 AC in studded leather or 22 when bladesinging with three attacks. As a starting fighter, you'll have a good Con save. So you'll have amazing Concentration saving throws with a good Con save, intelligence added to the save, and possibly advantage for warcaster. That means you can make a very 2E style bladesinger as a multiclass character and be quite powerful and potent as a fighter/wizard bladesinger. And you'll be able to cast a cantrip at least and fire off an attack.

Hmm, how would you level up? If you started at level 3, would that be Fighter 2/ Wizard 1, and then alternate levels - would be character level 7&8 before the ASI? Or focus on 4 levels of Fighter, then 4 of Wizard, and so on, in which case it takes a long time to feel like a bladesinger?

 

[Celtavian]

Hmm, how would you level up? If you started at level 3, would that be Fighter 2/ Wizard 1, and then alternate levels - would be character level 7&8 before the ASI? Or focus on 4 levels of Fighter, then 4 of Wizard, and so on, in which case it takes a long time to feel like a bladesinger?

I'd go Ftr 1 to get the good Con and Str save and the fighting style. Then Wizard Bladesinger 2 to get blade song. Then I'd level to Ftr 6 to get two attacks and two feats to get my stats leveled up. Then I'd go 3 more levels of wizard to get my casting ability stronger to level 4 wizard. So by 10th level I'd be a level 6 Eldritch Knight/4 Wizard Bladesinger with two attacks, 2nd level spells, and 6 levels of multiclass caster. Level 11 I'd take ftr 7 to get the ability to cast a cantrip and swing a blade. 12 I'd go one more fighter to get another feat. Then I'd go 4 more caster levels to get my casting ability to 4th level spells by 16th level with 10 levels of spell slots. Then three levels fighter to 3 attacks and 1 level wizard at 20 for 5th level slots. You can mix it up some in there if you want more casting or fighting ability. That would be a more melee capable bladesinger and fit the old archetype better. It would definitely be sweet if your DM gave you a mithril chain shirt that worked like light armor. No idea why the chain shirt didn't stay light armor.

 

[Psychometrika]

I think that bladesinger is well balanced as a wizard, but falls short in the melee department. As it should though! If the Bladesinger was as good as a fighter in melee in addition to all of the wizard spells it would be overpowered. I'm not sure if that capture the fluff well though.

Some people are comparing a self buffed Bladesinger to other melee classes which ignores opportunity cost. Instead of hasting the party fighter/pally/ranger which have more effective basic attacks, the wizard is gaining a relatively weak extra attack. So while from an individual perspective the Bladesinger "keeps up" with them in terms of damage, from a group perspective it is a weak play.

 

[Mephista]

So, yeah...just play a warlock. You don't even have to take pact of the blade. The other ones get you either a pet or extra cantrips. If you wanna play a wizard with a sword, what better way than dealing death with a blade in one hand an a grimoire in the other?

While I disagree with the sentiment that you should "just play another class," I will agree that warlocks, along with rangers and paladins, are the best gishes in the game. Monk, Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue might have a few magic tricks, but they're heavy on the fighter side. Cleric, wizard, druid, and sorcerer might have a few melee options, but they're primarily casters. Yes, even the Moon Druid once we get past that level 2-3 Bear issue.

Warlocks, rangers and paladins are the ones who mix mundane skills with supernatural magic to back them up. Why else call the warlock a magical archer?

Haven't quite figured out where to put the Bard yet. I really want to put it alongside the warlock and paladin, give their historic partial-caster state, but I'm not sure.

Anyways, I bring this up in no small part because I think that we should be comparing the bladesinger's melee attacks to a Divine Strike feature for parity.

 

[Prism]

It would definitely be sweet if your DM gave you a mithril chain shirt that worked like light armor. No idea why the chain shirt didn't stay light armor.

I house rule that elven chain counts as light armour as well as being wearable by those non proficient. Makes it roughly equal to studded armour +2 for an armour wearer, slightly better than mage armour for a wizard and slightly worse than a robe of the archmage. I make mithril armour purchasable and non magical (mainly as a nod to earlier editions) so prefer to keep that one as medium/heavy armour so it doesn't become the standard for dex based characters.

 

[Mephista]

Some people are comparing a self buffed Bladesinger to other melee classes which ignores opportunity cost. Instead of hasting the party fighter/pally/ranger which have more effective basic attacks, the wizard is gaining a relatively weak extra attack. So while from an individual perspective the Bladesinger "keeps up" with them in terms of damage, from a group perspective it is a weak play.

..... Check your math again. 1d8+DEX+INT versus a sword/board Fighter (1d8+STR) actually tends to favor the Bladesinger, while the Pally roughly matches. Putting a greatsword on these two increases the DPR by 2 - not enough for the Fighter to outpace the Bladesinger, though the paladin becomes only slightly better.

I said it before, I'll say it again. People are spoiled by Great Weapon Mastery and Sharpshooter's power attack feature. In a game without power attack (houseruled, not using feats, etc)...

 

[Prism]

..... Check your math again. 1d8+DEX+INT versus a sword/board Fighter (1d8+STR) actually tends to favor the Bladesinger, while the Pally roughly matches. Putting a greatsword on these two increases the DPR by 2 - not enough for the Fighter to outpace the Bladesinger, though the paladin becomes only slightly better.

I said it before, I'll say it again. People are spoiled by Great Weapon Mastery and Sharpshooter's power attack feature. In a game without power attack (houseruled, not using feats, etc)...

You only get that (+INT damage) at 14th level though. Before that both the fighter and paladin typically do more damage on a single attack without feats due to a combination of duelist or great weapon fighting, divine smite and maybe improved critical. I would also usually expect a bladesinger to have a slightly lower Dex and therefore attack bonus assuming Int was still their first priority. Not to much in it but enough to make it more worthwhile to haste the dedicated fighter type. I would also think that a bladesinger will be mixing it up (magic and melee) enough that they won't be in a position to swing a blade every round

 

[The_Hanged_Man]

You only get that (+INT damage) at 14th level though. Before that both the fighter and paladin typically do more damage on a single attack without feats due to a combination of duelist or great weapon fighting, divine smite and maybe improved critical. I would also usually expect a bladesinger to have a slightly lower Dex and therefore attack bonus assuming Int was still their first priority. Not to much in it but enough to make it more worthwhile to haste the dedicated fighter type. I would also think that a bladesinger will be mixing it up (magic and melee) enough that they won't be in a position to swing a blade every round

Exactly, the melee classes have access to damage boosting abilities (which wizards have almost none of), and taking an attack action is what they do best. A 14th+ level wizard has way better options than tossing out a couple of basic attacks. Sure those two attacks are better than the typical cantrip, but pale in comparison to the control, utility, and power of being a high level caster.

While the bladesinger has the ability to mix it up in melee, once you get to mid-level play it falls behind the dedicated melee classes. A nice option, but one I see to be mostly situationally useful from a defensive perspective than a go-to offensive tactic.