Expertise/Full Defense

[tarcil]

Greetings all

I know this question has been addressed in this forum, but I can't search for it, so I ask it again: Can expertise stack with full defense. I have no clue, and don't lean to one side or the other. I was wondering if there was an 'official' answer.

Edward

 

[Crothian]

No, the full defense doesn't have an attack action or somthing like that for one to be able to use expertise. One can fight defensively and use Expertise though.

 

[hammymchamham]

I'm gonna throw in the what Crothian said hat again

 

[Gaiden]

Crothian,

Do you have a reference for that, or is that conjecture?

The reason I ask is that I always thought you could combine the two (where the penalty would come into play would be opposed attack rolls and AoO).

 

[Li Shenron]

Crothian,

Do you have a reference for that, or is that conjecture?

The reason I ask is that I always thought you could combine the two (where the penalty would come into play would be opposed attack rolls and AoO).

It seems to me quite clear from the PHB: when doing the Total Defense you can also take a move, but you can't attack at all; to use Expertise or Fighting defensively you MUST be attacking (otherwise, unless someone provokes AoO - but it depends on others - you get an AC bonus for FREE!), so you can't combine them with Total Defense.

OTOH you can combine Expertise and Fighting Defensively when taking an attack action.

 

[IceBear]

Crothian,

Do you have a reference for that, or is that conjecture?

The reason I ask is that I always thought you could combine the two (where the penalty would come into play would be opposed attack rolls and AoO).

From the FAQ:

Do I have to make an attack to use the Expertise feat to
improve my Armor Class?

No, you don’t have to attack, but you do have to choose the
attack or full attack action. That is, you can declare an attack or
full attack, claim the Armor Class bonus, and then not make the
attacks to which you are entitled. You cannot use Expertise
with the total defense action or any other action except attack
or full attack.

IceBear

 

[Gaiden]

Thanks for the sources guys.

 

[Gaiden]

Ok,

On second thought, it doesn't seem to make sense at all that Expert Tactician would not apply during a total defense action. I understand that the clarifications unequivacally state that that is the case. However, think about it - it means that someone using Expertise would never EVER use the Total Defense option. Why would one take a total defense, a full round action, with no attacks, when he could get a higher AC while fighting defensively and using expertise, and have the option of attacking or moving?

Total defense - +4 AC (+6 w/5 ranks in Tumble)
Fighting Defensively w/Expertise - +2 to +7 (+3 to +8 w/5 ranks in Tumble). If you wanted to go for a Total Defense, you might as well fight defensively and go for the chance that you roll really high or in the case where you would never hit, score a natural 20. Even if you were using the total defense because you did not want to harm your opponent, it would still be more beneficial to fight defensively and hope to disarm, grapple, trip or hamper your opponent in some other way (again, perhaps w/a lucky roll).

IDHMBWM - as always seems to be the case when I make these posts, so perhaps I am missing something obvious, but if I am not I would houserule that you could use Expertise with Total Defense.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

to use Expertise or Fighting defensively you MUST be attacking

Not exactly: you must use the attack or full attack action, but you can use those actions without actually attacking. So you can stand around, doing nothing, and use both expertise and fight defensively.

BUT: You can't cast a spell and still use expertise (since the attack action uses up your standard action), and you can't run away (or take a double move) and still use expertise. And, you can't take the full defense action and still use expertise.

 

[Kestril]

In the D20 Wheel of Time game. Full Defense is considered an attack action and Expertise works with it as well as Fighting Defensively.