Explain "20 Minutes of Fun over 4 Hours" to me

[rounser]

You found it boring. Some of the other players may enjoy in game investigations.

I think the 3E designers seem to have sided with the "boring, let's abbreviate it" verdict, else Gather Information wouldn't exist.

 

[LostSoul]

You found it boring. Some of the other players may enjoy in game investigations. Others may appreciate the location not be well known since if it was, it might already been cleared out by another band of adventurers.

Trust me, it was boring. We were not communicating well as a group; I don't know why we didn't get to the dungeon sooner than we did. But we didn't, and the pace dragged, and not much fun was had by all.

edit: There wasn't any investigation going on, and the dungeon was well-known to everyone.

Some of that play was okay as we role-played our PCs doing their thing, introducing character, but after a while that was enough; we came to play this module, let's get to it! I think the DM might have been worried about railroading us, and that's where our wires got crossed. Nobody to blame, just poor communication that time.

 

[ssampier]

Just like amusement parks. When the place is packed when you wait in line for an hour. The ride lasts 2 minutes. Two minutes of fun packed into one hour. It's hyperbole, sure. You also can tell I am not a ride person.

I wouldn't get caught up worrying about how much fun you should be having. As long as you and your friends are having fun, that's all that matters.

 

[FireLance]

Just like amusement parks. When the place is packed when you wait in line for an hour. The ride lasts 2 minutes. Two minutes of fun packed into one hour. It's hyperbole, sure. You also can tell I am not a ride person.

I think the key is, a D&D game shouldn't be like waiting for an amusement park ride. The DM and players are (presumably) already at the same table, so the fun should be able to start right away. So what creates these gaming table "lines"? It could be the DM wanting the players to do something they have no interest in. It could be one player hogging the lion's share of the DM's attention (and not even bothering to make it interesting for the other players). It could be the players bickering amongst themselves. Whatever the cause, most of the group has to wait for the fun to begin.

 

[boolean]

Sometimes I get the impression that DMs who are insecure or unsure will actually let the players 'wander around aimlessly' instead of taking a direct hand, as if the players will be entertained simply by playing their characters and, well, wandering around.

As LostSoul pointed out, there is the issue of "railroading". Taking a direct hand could be seen as railroading, which has at times been built up as a bogeyman to be avoided at all costs.

The players are also a little at fault here. Sometimes, it just takes somebody saying "I get on my horse and ride to the dungeon. Anybody else coming?"

 

[Mark CMG]

(. . .) let the players 'wander around aimlessly' instead of taking a direct hand, as if the players will be entertained silmply by playing their characters and, well, wandering around.

The premise for my current campaign. Of course, they cannot step in a single direction without coming across a hook. They just have to decide which of many they intend to follow. Alternately, they can spend the whole campaign purposefully ignoring adventure. One player seems intent on exploring the various types of baked goods one can find in the setting. Another, brooks no insult, real or imagined, and is constantly challenging people to fight or grumbling to himself that he should be challenging them if they are obviously outclassing him. The third player is having a ball, it would seem, just following along with the other two and egging them on.

Thus far, in four games, they have spent a good deal of time around the fighting pits of one player's temple, participating in the pit and also gambling on the results of many fights. They have foiled the nefarious plans of a marketplace huckster and pretend magician who was obviously evil but in the course of giving him his due set ablaze a maret tent/kiosk/stall and were imprisoned for arson. They were extricated by the one player's superior at the temple and will likely work off the monies spent on damages. They helped free a repentant criminal and helped speed the deaths of a few unfortunate souls who had no others to help their necks snap when the drop on the gallows wasn't enough to do the job in the natural way. It has been an interesting campaign so far, IMO.

 

[LostSoul]

As LostSoul pointed out, there is the issue of "railroading".

Yeah.

I think our problem was mostly a social one, one that came from a lack of open communication between everyone playing. In our game, we wanted the DM to railroad us into the adventure - and once we were there, we could make all sorts of meaningful decisions. Which path to take, what spells to memorize, how to fight the monsters, how our feat choices would affect the next encounter, etc. That is what we wanted, and what we didn't clearly express to the DM.

I ran an adventure for the same group that took place in a small mountain pass. Yeah, the PCs couldn't leave that pass and do whatever they felt like. But we all knew that we were going to deal with the conflict that existed there, so the players had no reason to leave. And we got right down to the adventure. So railroading = True, yeah, but fun = True as well.

In my little example of a poor game, I'm not saying that D&D is at fault (it ain't), or the DM (he's a good DM), or that the players were (we've had many a successful session before). What happened is that all of it failed to come together, and everyone is at fault.

But it is not true that 20 minutes of fun in 4 hours does not exist in our hobby. I would like to see designers tackle that problem - making it less likely to occur. It's never going to go away, given that real people are involved, but any tools we can have to reduce the chances of it via the game text are welcome.

In my opinion, anything that aids communication between players (including the DM) about what people want when they sit down for a game would help out here.

What this means, I leave up to guys like mearls.

 

[Mark Hope]

20 minutes of fun stretched out over a four-hour gaming session seems like a dreadful way to spend an evening. You'd have to get my players to confirm this, but given that we play for only three and a half hours per week, I try to make damn sure that we don't go for more than ten minutes without something happening. And those stretches of ten minutes are generally given over to the characters debating their next course of action, or quick shopping trips (OK, sometimes they "debate" for a bit longer, but when that happens, I am swift to crack the whip and get things moving).

Last night in my 11th level Dark Sun game we started with a cut-scene of the villans plotting, red-lined a three-day trip across the desert, had some neat PC/NPC interaction, a swift bout of PC plotting, a battle at an inn with a gehreleth (DR 10/good is a hoot on Athas!), a stealth infilatration of an enemy base (including three combats of varying sizes, with from two to eight opponents apiece, and various coups-de-grace of sleeping foes), some traps, hidden passages, looted chests, mulling over handouts detailing enemy plans, and then a cliffhanger showdown with a recurring NPC.

The sort of wasted time alluded to in the "20 minutes" quote simply isn't possible, let alone desirable, if we want to have any kind of decent pacing and sense of accomplishment in a session.

For short sessions of this kind, I think that preparation is key. I am using Paizo and WotC maps and Dungeon Tiles where possible to save on time drawing battlemats (found this to be a big time-saver last night). I have also picked up the Combat Pad initiative tracker from Paizo, which is seven shades of awesome. Index cards for stats, NPC writeups on my laptop are hyperlinked to the SRD or various pdfs, music is in a series of premade mixes and playlists, counters for all the encounters are premade and stacked in the order that they are likely to come into play. Every minute that is saved in prep work is shaved off dead-time in the game and with such short sessions, every such minute counts. Maybe the original quote comes from a game with a more laid-back approach, I dunno. We like to socialise and have a laugh around the table, but we are having the most fun when the game is whipping along at a solid pace.

 

[Schmoe]

Anytime you are playing in such a boring game, it is your right, nay your duty, to take control away from the dm. Punch your "employer" in the face! Attack the town guards! Push old people into wells! Toss a dwarf through a window! Start a bar fight! DO SOMETHING!

Who cares if your pc gets killed? At least you'll have some fun dying. If another player objects, attack his character! DO SOMETHING!

Now when your pathetic dm get pissed off and throws his campaign notes away in a huff, you can start a new game or find another group to play with.

Haha, too true. In fact, we did try to be more proactive. We were all 2nd level "shady" characters and decided to start running some street jobs to make things interesting. We tried to pull a pick-pocketing stunt on someone, looking specifically for a target with "no bodyguards or escorts." After over 1 hour in game of explaining the setup and looking for a target, we pulled off the stunt, only to have 3 bodyguards who mysteriously appeared, one of which was at least a 5th level thief (3d6 sneak attack), and killed one of our party. I think that was the last session I played

 

[Schmoe]

It is more of Fun for those Wotc can easily part from thier money vs. Not fun for those Wotc can easily part from thier money. Business do focus groups on stuff like this all the time.

I'm not sure I understand this. Care to explain?