D&D General Explain Bounded Accuracy to Me (As if I Was Five)

[Gammadoodler]

Sure, welcome to the conversation, again...

No, it isn't rushing to judgement. These are people I've given months, several sessions, in some cases more than a year, to learn the BASIC systems of the game and the features of only their characters.

These are also people who I know outside of the game, and lazy (to one extent or another) describes most of them fairly well.

So, since you know NOTHING of the issue, maybe you should also stop "rushing to judge" without asking for particulars and gaining more information FIRST.

Finally, your over-exaggeration of "perfectly memorise all the rules" is quite disingenuous, especially once you know these are people who play weekly, not "only once a month".

I guess I'd wonder what they are getting out of participating in an activity with rules they don't understand..weekly..for months.

Like, this doesn't sound very fun, unless there is something outside of the rules that is important/fun to them (e.g. spending time with other people, or group storytelling).

 

[Thomas Shey]

I guess I'd wonder what they are getting out of participating in an activity with rules they don't understand..weekly..for months.

Like, this doesn't sound very fun, unless there is something outside of the rules that is important/fun to them (e.g. spending time with other people, or group storytelling).

I suspect you answered your own question.

After all, they might be people who would be happier with a much lighter rules system that only demanded limited engagement--but if that's not the game being played, well...

 

[Vaalingrade]

Sure, welcome to the conversation, again...

Thanks, bud! I'm always happy to get a polite and reasoned welcome!

No, it isn't rushing to judgement. These are people I've given months, several sessions, in some cases more than a year, to learn the BASIC systems of the game and the features of only their characters.

Define 'several'.

Now define it based on how long is actually reasonable to learn a new skill and retain a set of rules you aren't interactign with on a very regular basis for most people that aren't... well like us.

These are also people who I know outside of the game, and lazy (to one extent or another) describes most of them fairly well.

Oh, I'd love to see what fits that description here because that word has never been used as a baseless pejorative to attack wide swathes of people for not sharing the same values or priorities before.

So, since you know NOTHING of the issue, maybe you should also stop "rushing to judge" without asking for particulars and gaining more information FIRST.

Nope.

Finally, your over-exaggeration of "perfectly memorise all the rules" is quite disingenuous, especially once you know these are people who play weekly, not "only once a month".

Oh, this is an issue I have a lot of experience with. I know how this community is with rules and their status as a pseudo sacred text you MUST KNOW and if you take a minute to look it up in game time, you are a problem that must be insulted and shunned. And it always comes with the same language and aggression as seen here.

 

[ezo]

I guess I'd wonder what they are getting out of participating in an activity with rules they don't understand..weekly..for months.

Like, this doesn't sound very fun, unless there is something outside of the rules that is important/fun to them (e.g. spending time with other people, or group storytelling).

I can explain then.

90% of the time when this happens, we're all friends beforehand. So, people we know and enjoy hanging out with and do other things with. Either we ask them to join or they want to try and ask the group, either way we give them a chance.

Initially, things are good. The new players are fine, seem to be learning, participating, etc. However, in these rare cases, it becomes apparent over time that as much as they enjoy playing, their lack of improvement as players (so to say) begins to frustrate the rest of the group. Things that, by that point, should be understood without asking for help or constantly having to look up information during their turn (allowing for any disabilities, of course, just so that is understood!). Looking up a rarely used feature or spell is one thing, but forgetting to include your proficiency bonus to an attack or a save in which your PC is proficient, etc. simply drags things out.

For most of us, even when we play weekly, game time is precious, and waiting for a player whose been playing for months to remember basic and common aspects of the game is not only frustrating, but disrespectful to the other people in the group. It's not just about their fun, but all of ours.

Fortunately, most of the time such players are happy to fallback to other roles in the game if they want to continue (such as playing a sidekick or NPC) or simply hang out and enjoy watching and spending time with everyone. Some pay more attention, spend more time learning, etc. and become more productive members of the group. Very rarely, the players stops coming entirely. If they were friends before, they remain so of course and we still do other things with them, but D&D isn't one of them. They are always welcome, of course, but that decision is theirs.

After all, they might be people who would be happier with a much lighter rules system that only demanded limited engagement--but if that's not the game being played, well...

And this is one of the great things about RPGs! We don't always play D&D, so when we play a different system, such as Vampire, we always keep the others informed and invited. Many times, those players enjoy the other game system pretty well. Vampire, more of a social game and not as "rules" heavy, is a great alternative!

Thanks, bud! I'm always happy to get a polite and reasoned welcome!

Any time.

Define 'several'.

3 (or 4) or more is the most commonly accepted definition.

However, as the "or more" part of the definition, I am using it in the range of at least a dozen, and very likely much more.

Now define it based on how long is actually reasonable to learn a new skill and retain a set of rules you aren't interactign with on a very regular basis for most people that aren't... well like us.

You seem to think these people "aren't interactign with on a very regular basis". I suppose only you can determine what a "very regular basis" is for yourself. For me, and the people I play with, once a week (at least 3 times a month), certainly constitutes it, especially since we play for an average of 6 hours at a time (4-8 usually). Your definition probably varies, of course.

"Like us"??? I really can't say what you mean by that, since every individual is unique.

Oh, I'd love to see what fits that description here because that word has never been used as a baseless pejorative to attack wide swathes of people for not sharing the same values or priorities before.

I'm sure you would. But there is a big difference when it isn't "baseless", not "pejorative", nor an "attack".

Nope.

Your choice, but unfortunately it will continue to lead to such misunderstandings as this.

Oh, this is an issue I have a lot of experience with. I know how this community is with rules and their status as a pseudo sacred text you MUST KNOW and if you take a minute to look it up in game time, you are a problem that must be insulted and shunned.

If you must take a minute to look up the same information, or have it explained to you, again and again, then IT becomes a problem. Notice I said "IT" and not "you". People are not problems, their behaviors, actions, and attitudes are. Hopefully, once identified and explained, that problem can be resolved.

And it always comes with the same language and aggression as seen here.

Right back at ya!

This is a situation you knew nothing about, made whatever assumptions you wanted to, and posted accordingly. Perhaps you've encountered similar situations, but those are not mine, they are yours.

 

[Horwath]

But folks that are shy?

Give them alcohol.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yeah I think this is an example of the problem. Don't play the game if you don't want to be around players who are not experts.

This is the equivalent of getting together for a pick-up game of basketball and telling the short kid to go home because he sucks.

No, it's more like telling the kid with a Gameboy they are more interested in or the kid who keeps "traveling" that they are ruining the enjoyment for the rest of the team... Since you quoted the it's rude to suck at warcraft video too .. if Bob want to join a raid that causes him damage when not wearing boots it's not reasonable to expect Alice and Cindy to silently respect his decision to play a barefoot hobbit inspired gnome who requires constant healing on that raid.

The ONLY time this is acceptable is during session 0. If you are past session 0 and you did not say this specific thing in sesssion 0 "you need to do more than show up" then no you can't say that later. The better options is for Alice and Cindy to simply leave the game if they are not having fun.

No. "Hey guys I don't really want to play the game with you learn any rules or pay attention during play, you shouldn't expect much of anything from me" is the session zero reveal the group deserves. Showing up to play d&d implies an interest in playing d&d and playing d&d requires some effort on the part of all participants. If a player is consistently acting in that way it shows that the behavior is not a one off or a bad day and it very much deserves to be criticized rather than silently accepted as being a thing beyond reproach. Because nobody thought to explain how high sticking is very much not allowed in basketball during team selection.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Going off on people for not learning the rules to a game so as to match one's exacting specifications is akin to what you see with gifted students.

When you're good at something and focus on it, you start to feel that your level of involvement and commitment is 'normal'. People not 'keeping up' with you starts to become frustrating and instead of empathizing with those people and the fac that they aren't on par with you, instead you see these students start to act out, viewing these other people as below them, lazy, or actively malicious and thus 'deserving' of abuse.

In the gaming world, this is all too common, leading to disdain against 'noobs' and 'filthy casuals'. The truth is, especially with its expanded fandom in recent years, other D&D players aren't going to match us, who are so invested in D&D that we post on a forum about it in our free time, in terms of prioritization and devotion to the game.

Most players don't know all the rules to the games they play. Practically no one plays Monopoly by the rules, for example, and most Dark Souls players don't even understand the stats of the weapons they main. It's unreasonable in light of this, to just assume everyone is going to learn all the ins and outs of their D&D character whom they interact with once a week at best.

Instead, it's more useful to be helpful and anticipate where they're going to not remember.

You would think we as a community would be understanding of this considering how 'important' people keep saying having a class that plays on automatic is.

 

[ezo]

"Going off on people" (i.e. getting angry and/or yelling) is never a good thing. But that is a very different thing than being frustrated and trying to help/work with such players to make them "proficient" (yes, I went there! ) in the game. Again, I'm talking about basic proficiency in understanding how the game mechanics work and what your PC can do. There are no "exacting specifications" about this, it is about basic game fluency.

Frankly, I expect players to be willing to put in a little time (at a minimum) to learning the game. New players run the gambit--I've had players who are sponges and read game books practially cover-to-cover; and I've had players who struggled, so we help them with "cheat sheets" for quick reference. Then, I've had players who aren't even willing to go that far, who end up forgetting their character sheets, dice, those "cheat sheets", etc. Not just once in a while, mind you, but repeatedly. I got to the point I told players to take pictures of their character sheets (if they don't use online versions), just in case they forget the printed versions. You can always borrow dice, and make references to the books if needed, but generally character sheets are a necessity.

I've also suggested many times for players who struggle to take a bit of time and refresh themselves with their PCs, rules, etc. when they can before the sesssion, or we even take a few minutes at the start. @DND_Reborn even created several "feature cards" for our groups, to go along with the cheat sheets for quick reference.

So, myself and those I game with have done many things to help people who struggle with learning the game, but as the saying goes, "You can't help those who won't help themselves."

 

[Vaalingrade]

"Going off on people" (i.e. getting angry and/or yelling)

And name calling. That's the crux of the issue here. The name calling and justifications thereof.

 

[Campbell]

I fully understand that the level of commitment and interest I have in the games I play (and run) is not the norm. However, to have the sorts of play experiences I prefer it needs to be the norm at the table. I do not think anyone should be talked down to or shamed, but the standard is the standard. If you want to reach the standard (whatever it is for a given game) I can work with you, but if you have no interest in learning the game or more importantly learning about the setting and the other player characters than there's not going to be a lot of room for you at the table.

I'm not a huge fan of automatic classes. I like options that have gradual learning curves, but if there's no effort to bring someone along so they are playing the same game as everyone else I am not really a fan of that.