Extra Spell

[KarinsDad]

I realize you are joking, but just to refute... So did the feat we are describing We entered non-Core rules-land long before I chimed in

But, Sorcerer Only spells came in after this feat as well AFAIK.

 

[Thanee]

I realize you are joking, but just to refute... So did the feat we are describing We entered non-Core rules-land long before I chimed in

But you said, that the primarily (in the core rules) refers to Sor-only spells, which are not on the Sor/Wiz spell list... that's what I meant (in case that wasn't clear).

There are no such spells, but there are Wiz-only spells... so there is no reason to think, that this is the reason for the primarily IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RigaMortus2]

But you said, that the primarily (in the core rules) refers to Sor-only spells, which are not on the Sor/Wiz spell list... that's what I meant (in case that wasn't clear).

There are no such spells, but there are Wiz-only spells... so there is no reason to think, that this is the reason for the primarily IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

Ok, I see what you are saying. I guess my point is, sure, at the time the PHB was written and the Extra Spell feat came out, that wouldn't apply ("primarily" referring to Sor-only spells). But since we have multiple sources to work with now, and since there are Sor-only spells, the arguement does apply. In other words, I couldn't have made the same arguement pre-Complete Mage (or whatever book the Sor-only spells are in) But here is where we are, and so I think that it makes sense.

The logic I am using (again) is this... "Primarily" to me means that this is the main list Sorcerers use to pick their spells from. So if there is another list (or another way) for Sorcerers to get spells, we have to first see what other lists are out there that the Sorcerer would "legally" (within the D&D rules) be able to take. There is a Cleric list, a Druid list, a Bard list, etc. and the Sorc is not allowed to pick spells from those lists according to the standard D&D rules in the PHB. The Sorc DOES have access to a few spells that are only available to the Sorc (as opposed to being available to the Sorc and Wizard). So, again, this would mean to me that "primarily" they pick from Sorc/Wiz list (as it is written) and then "secondary" (if you will) they can pick from the Sorc-only list (which is very small, it may only have 2 or 3 spells on it). Anything OTHER than that, they either (a) don't qualify to pick from or (b) the DM could Rule 0 to allow them. In addition, if they wanted a Cure Light Wounds-type spell, they'd have to use the rules for researching or studying new spells, since Cure Light Wounds is not an "unusual spell" as Clerics and Druids and Bards cast it quite frequently. However, an "Arcane Cure Light Wounds" (or whatever you choose to call it) that has the same effect as your average "Cure Light Wounds" would be unusual if the DM chose to allow it.

Ok, that was entirely more longwinded than I had intended it to be

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have never noticed Wiz only or Sorc only spells...anyone know of a list?

 

[Thanee]

The list for Wiz only spells in the PHB is pretty short.

Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer and Mordenkainen's Lucubration

@RigaMortus2: But when you go by this logic consequently, a Wizard would not be able to learn the above two spells, since they are not on the Sor/Wiz list.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RigaMortus2]

I have never noticed Wiz only or Sorc only spells...anyone know of a list?

Ok, so I just double checked the "sorc only spell list" and I am incorrect about it (sort of). The spell Arcane Fusion in Complete Mage is actually on the Sorc/Wizard list... HOWEVER, when you go to the spell description, it lists Level: Sorcerer 5 as the class that is able to take it. This might be an oversight on WotC's part, or it may be intentional.

This basically refutes what I said earlier, as even though the Sorcerer is the only one able to take it, it is still technically on the Sorcerer/Wizards spell list... So what does this mean for a Wizard who wants to take Arcane Fusion? Hmmm...

The list for Wiz only spells in the PHB is pretty short.

Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer and Mordenkainen's Lucubration

@RigaMortus2: But when you go by this logic consequently, a Wizard would not be able to learn the above two spells, since they are not on the Sor/Wiz list.

Bye
Thanee

Just like Arcane Fusion, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer and Mordenkainen's Lucubration are both technically still on the Sorc/Wiz spell list. However, it is limited to Wizards only. You'll have to figure out what that means.

 

[jasin]

Recaster is another "interesting" wording that should be fixed, IMO.

If it was handled like the artificer (minimum caster level) it would work a whole lot better. But the way it is worded presently it causes the same question that a liberally viewed extra spell causes.

What level spell if the spell has multiple spell levels for different classes?

As an extreme example, from the Spell Compendium.

pg 129 Know Vulnerabilities.

Bard 2, Cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4.

Which version is allowed?

Assuming you feel the basic principle of cross-list poaching is fine, I see no problem. If know vulnerabilities is available as a Brd 2, Clr 3 and Sor/Wiz 4 spell, and you can pick one spell from any list, just pick one. (Obviously, it's probably the best idea to pick the bard version... but probably an even better idea to pick something to which you'd otherwise have no access at all.)

 

[KarinsDad]

Just like Arcane Fusion, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer and Mordenkainen's Lucubration are both technically still on the Sorc/Wiz spell list. However, it is limited to Wizards only. You'll have to figure out what that means.

What it means is that the Sorcerer/Wizard generic list is not designed for Wizard Only or Sorcerer Only spells. The spell itself always take priority over the generic list.

No question here.

 

[irdeggman]

Assuming you feel the basic principle of cross-list poaching is fine, I see no problem. If know vulnerabilities is available as a Brd 2, Clr 3 and Sor/Wiz 4 spell, and you can pick one spell from any list, just pick one. (Obviously, it's probably the best idea to pick the bard version... but probably an even better idea to pick something to which you'd otherwise have no access at all.)

So even more "rules" must be added to make the feat work that way.

Hmmm at what point does the feat get rendered useless as written becasue of the number of "additions" required to make it fit.

It seems to me that the FAQ, which basically covers interpretation and not a new rule, covers it fine by making the spell only available from the PC's spell list in the first place. That means things like whether it is divine or not (hey what about all of the spells which reuire different type of foci depending on whether or not it is divine? Or those that require a DF and now the PC is making it an arcane spell?). Even more "additions" are now required in order to make the feat read the way some "want" it to.