Extra Spell

[irdeggman]

Actually, the language in OA indicates sorcerers must choose one or the other list, they cannot choose from both the Sorc/Wiz list AND the Wu Jen list.

True the text does say "either".

My point is still valid however. It is a campaign setting specific rule that changes the sorcerer spell list and is not a "generic" rule that applies to all settings.

 

[Thanee]

Because it is also crystal clear that several of us disagree with the ruling.

Obviously.

The question is, do you disagree with how the rule works, or with how the rule should work.

Those are two different things.

There is really little ground to argue how the rule actually works.
But how the rule should work is something else entirely.

This is one of mine.

And that's totally fine.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The question is, do you disagree with how the rule works, or with how the rule should work.

Like I said, I don't see the power imbalance that R&D supposedly perceived. To me, at least, the Feat's silence is still is open to interpretation, and I'll continue to rule it to function identically to Expanded Knowledge.

IMHO, the Full casters & Full manifesters are pretty balanced versus each other, even with the FAQ interpreting Extra Spell and Expanded Knowledge differently. Others on these boards have vociferously voiced opinions that the Psionic Classes routinely outdo the Core casters.

Combine that with the differing interpretations of the Feats resulting in the lesser manifesting classes getting access to all the Psion/Wilder list while lesser spellcasters getting shut out.

In reality, its not the difference in the number of powers vs number of spells available to each class, its the difference in the quality of the powers vs the spells that have most people up in arms.

Most people on these boards who play min-maxed full casters routinely have a mental list of spells they will almost always take for those PCs. And judging by the number of times those spells show up in threads helping newbies out for their wizards & sorcerers, or complaining about overpowered spells, I'm pretty sure those PC spell-lists would be 80-90% the same. That's the same 30-some spells out of 1000 WotC spells, chosen again and again, all around the world. Pare the list from which to choose down to Core + Completes, and the spell lists would become even more similar. If the selection was Core only, I'd be willing to bet you'd see 99% or better identity.

I'm not sure the same could be said of min-maxed Psions and Wilders, despite a much smaller pool from which to choose.

Clearly, the Sorc/Wiz list has a lot more "dead weight" on it.

Yet this is precisely the list that is being the most restricted, and because of this, the so-called "underpowered" partial spellcasters like Bards, etc. will forever be even worse off in comparison to the lesser psionic manifesters than ever before, lending creedence to the complaints of those who believe the Psionic classes are overpowered relative to the core spellcasting classes.

 

[Votan]

Like I said, I don't see the power imbalance that R&D supposedly perceived. To me, at least, the Feat's silence is still is open to interpretation, and I'll continue to rule it to function identically to Expanded Knowledge.

IMHO, the Full casters & Full manifesters are pretty balanced versus each other, even with the FAQ interpreting Extra Spell and Expanded Knowledge differently. Others on these boards have vociferously voiced opinions that the Psionic Classes routinely outdo the Core casters.

Combine that with the differing interpretations of the Feats resulting in the lesser manifesting classes getting access to all the Psion/Wilder list while lesser spellcasters getting shut out.

In reality, its not the difference in the number of powers vs number of spells available to each class, its the difference in the quality of the powers vs the spells that have most people up in arms.

Most people on these boards who play min-maxed full casters routinely have a mental list of spells they will almost always take for those PCs. And judging by the number of times those spells show up in threads helping newbies out for their wizards & sorcerers, or complaining about overpowered spells, I'm pretty sure those PC spell-lists would be 80-90% the same. That's the same 30-some spells out of 1000 WotC spells, chosen again and again, all around the world. Pare the list from which to choose down to Core + Completes, and the spell lists would become even more similar. If the selection was Core only, I'd be willing to bet you'd see 99% or better identity.

I'm not sure the same could be said of min-maxed Psions and Wilders, despite a much smaller pool from which to choose.

Clearly, the Sorc/Wiz list has a lot more "dead weight" on it.

Yet this is precisely the list that is being the most restricted, and because of this, the so-called "underpowered" partial spellcasters like Bards, etc. will forever be even worse off in comparison to the lesser psionic manifesters than ever before, lending creedence to the complaints of those who believe the Psionic classes are overpowered relative to the core spellcasting classes.

In my opinion, it isn't unbalanced to house-rule the feat this way. In general, the only times that this will work out badly are when the spell itself synergizes with another spell or the spell is inherently overpowered (Wraithstrike). But, a lot of the the time there are alternatives to doing this that are actually more powerful (Arcane Disciple, Cleric Domains and so forth).

I actually worry a lot more about clerics cherry picking key arcane spells rather than the reverse. In general, a sorcerer or wizard is never really going to do anything bad for getting a spell that is balanced for a full caster class with better design elements (clerics have better HD, armor use, better BAB, better saves and a stronger skill list but are still full casters; if there spells are overpowered in the hands of an arcane caster than that is a problem with the design of the spell).

So I don;t think that this is an unreasonable approach. But I am quite sure that the rules as they are written (and supported by FAQ) don;t say this. But then I have never been in a game where some degree of house ruling did not occur to smooth out the rough edges of the game anyway. If this makes your games more fun or makes a character concept more viable then hey -- that's cool.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In general, the only times that this will work out badly are when the spell itself synergizes with another spell or the spell is inherently overpowered (Wraithstrike).

As yet, nobody in my campaigns, nor anyone in any of the other campaigns has used that spell. However, I've heard the buzz about how it seems to be overpowered...

But the solution isn't to edit the feat, its to disallow the spell- use a specific rather than general solution to the problem.

IOW, use a scalpel to excise the problem, not a nuke to flatten everything you see.

Like I said, I used to gripe to WotC about how they'd ban 2 or 3 cards that created a combo, when all they had to do was ban one- usually the most recently printed one.

 

[Votan]

As yet, nobody in my campaigns, nor anyone in any of the other campaigns has used that spell. However, I've heard the buzz about how it seems to be overpowered...

But the solution isn't to edit the feat, its to disallow the spell- use a specific rather than general solution to the problem.

IOW, use a scalpel to excise the problem, not a nuke to flatten everything you see.

Like I said, I used to gripe to WotC about how they'd ban 2 or 3 cards that created a combo, when all they had to do was ban one- usually the most recently printed one.

True. The spell (Wraitstrike) is really only deadly if it can migrate to medium or full BAB classes that can effectively enter melee. There is a significant penalty to be a Fighter/Mage and Wraithstrike just makes the pain less. But, for a power attacking cleric, it is an awesome spell as you can shave amazing amounts of AC off of a Target.

An Old Red Dragon, for example, goes from AC 33 to AC 6 (+27 to hit). A Pit Fiend drops from AC 40 to AC 17 (+ 23 to hit). Even a critter like a Grey Render drops from AC 19 to Ac 9 (+10 to hit). This makes a massive difference in damage output if power attacking with a 2 handed weapon is an option.

It also stacks with Arcane Strike (think of a Duskblade) which means maximum power attack is going to happen with every strike at medium levels.

Now imagine a cleric with Divine Power as a buff who uses this spell as well . . .

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just as a For Example, here are a couple of relatively recent threads that regard the relative power of Psions vs Arcane casters, at least tangentially.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=170210&page=1
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=183877&page=1&pp=40

Be warned, some of the posts are kinda math-y.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I'm not aware of any Sorcerer-only spells...

I beleive Arcane Fusion is one of them. And IIRC it is from Complete Mage. I don't have my books in front of me atm, so if I am mistaken here, I'll check when I get home and update it.

 

[Thanee]

But those came after the core rule text.

OTOH, there are wizard-only spells in the PHB, so if anyone should have such a text meaning what you say, it would have to be the wizard. Therefore, it has to mean something else (i.e. what irdeggman said earlier).

Bye
Thanee

 

[RigaMortus2]

But those came after the core rule text.

Bye
Thanee

I realize you are joking, but just to refute... So did the feat we are describing We entered non-Core rules-land long before I chimed in