Extra Spell

[wildstarsreach]

Well, there is the problem. The restriction is not listed in the feat. It is the default restriction placed upon (most) spell casters. That restriction being that they can only cast spells from their class' spell list. So while you might be able to "learn one additional spell", the spell that you do learn is not added to your spell list and thus can not be cast. I'll fire the same question back at you...

Unfortunately as much as I want to agree with Felix, I am having to concede to the conservative interpretation of the feat. Takasi is right that without using the language to have the exceptions, it would be your class list.

 

[Felix]

This is probably the best description of why the more liberal interpretation would be wrong.

Not quite right. KarinsDad gives a very good description of why the more liberal interpretation would be less balanced. Quite a different animal entirely than "wrong".

EDIT:

wildstarsreach, for the whole of this thread takasi has given a perfectly reasonable and grounded interpretation of the rules. My point has been that yours as well is grounded, though they are at cross purposes; I'm waiting for Artoomis to chime in saying there can be two right answers to rule questions, as he does in his signature. It's really up to your DM to decide, and you may point this thread in his direction so he can see both arguments.

In the end, legitimate or not, your DM will likely decide based on how he thinks it will effect his game, and so his decision has as much to do with the spell you choose as it does what the rules say. I suggest you drop the case for Wraithstrike, as I would likely bar that even if I did rule that you could pick any spell. Plenty of other good spells out there.

And you might say, "Please". Never hurts.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Not quite right. KarinsDad gives a very good description of why the more liberal interpretation would be less balanced. Quite a different animal entirely than "wrong".

I'm one who wants the more liberal interpretation. It is my opinion to agree with KarinsDad here and my opinion isn't yours. I am coming to the opinion that unfortunately as much as I might argue, that the FAQ got it right according the wording or lack thereof. Yes, "You learn one additional spell." It is silent on anything else until you get to wizards. With wizards, it gives something that it doesn't give Sorcerers. Several people have given descriptions on the possibility of why wizards might not have access or ability to research certain spells.

I am saying that it is possible that I, was wrong about the interpretation of this feat. I can see where it could lead otherwise but I am changing my vote to that the FAQ got it right regardless of what I think. The writers didn't put anything in to say otherwise unlike Expanded Knowledge (Psionics). Since the writers of the feat aren't answering the FAQ questions, we unfortunately have nothing else to go on.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Not quite right. KarinsDad gives a very good description of why the more liberal interpretation would be less balanced. Quite a different animal entirely than "wrong".

EDIT:

wildstarsreach, for the whole of this thread takasi has given a perfectly reasonable and grounded interpretation of the rules. My point has been that yours as well is grounded, though they are at cross purposes; I'm waiting for Artoomis to chime in saying there can be two right answers to rule questions, as he does in his signature. It's really up to your DM to decide, and you may point this thread in his direction so he can see both arguments.

In the end, legitimate or not, your DM will likely decide based on how he thinks it will effect his game, and so his decision has as much to do with the spell you choose as it does what the rules say. I suggest you drop the case for Wraithstrike, as I would likely bar that even if I did rule that you could pick any spell. Plenty of other good spells out there.

I have though a couple in our group have pointed out that wraithstrike should be a 5th level since it is like a quickened spell.

It should be scaled like true strike

[/QUOTE]
And you might say, "Please". Never hurts. [/QUOTE]

Already have. Doesn't work since wraithstrike is overpowered.

 

[Felix]

It is my opinion to agree with KarinsDad here and my opinion isn't yours.

You'll note that KarinsDad was arguing along balance lines, and not upon the wording of the feat or of the classes. As game balance is not a matter of the wording of the rules but rather their implimentation, when you argue balance you argue "how the rules should be used"; you do not argue "what the rules are", which I have been.

As they're completely different lines of argument, it's rather hard for one to prove the other, as you opined, "wrong". Thus my reply.

Already have. Doesn't work since wraithstrike is overpowered.

My opinion as well.

Note I've recommended selecting another spell for the feat.

 

[irdeggman]

However, between that little word "primarily" in the rules regarding Sorcerers (as well as the OA option of Sorcerers using the Wu Jen list) opening an interesting door for DMs & Players alike to look through, and the ability of a Wizard to learn, copy and add any spell in the game to his spellbook via Independent Research, neither of these 2 classes is likely to suffer significantly from having Extra Spell limiting their options to class lists only- its the lesser caster classes that will.

This point from OA seems to be one of the anchors of the arguement here.

OA is a "setting" and things work differently there.

The text in OA expands the sorcerer's list of spells to include the Wu Jen's spells for OA "setting" not as two separate lists.

As a general rule (non-setting specific) use the Wu Jen from Complete Arcane (whcih does not expand the sorcerer's spell list to include Wu Jen spells).

From the Magic Overview section on gaining new spells.

Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: Bard Spells Known or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.

Which fills the missing gap from the SRD on sorcereer spells:

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

 

[RigaMortus2]

a sorcerer draws his spell primarily from the sor/wiz spell list.

Right. Primarily they pick their spells from the sor/wiz list. When they don't, they pick from just the Sor list. Tthere are a few spells in PHB2 and Spell Compendium that a Sorcerer can cast, but a Wizard does not. Other than that, it is up to the DM to allow other spells. These usually come from research or custom made spells. I don't think a Sorc can learn Cure Light Wounds, but they could learn a similiar (custom) spell that has the exact same effect. Again, up to the DM.

 

[Artoomis]

... I'm waiting for Artoomis to chime in saying there can be two right answers to rule questions...

Not going to happen in this case. In this case, given the contrast with Expanded Knowledge where language is included that does expand the list to draw from, it is pretty clear that the written rule of drawing from only your own class list holds.

The opposite conclusion is based upon a rather weak argument but a very, very generous DM might be swayed to allow it. I would not - the Expanded Knowledge feat was the thing that, for me, put the final nail in the coffin of the liberal interpretation.

To me, at least, the liberal interpretation is too strained to be acceptable as a legitimate reading of the rules.

 

[Thanee]

Right. Primarily they pick their spells from the sor/wiz list. When they don't, they pick from just the Sor list.

Well, that certainly can't be meant there.

irdeggman's explanation above looks quite on target to me.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

You'll note that KarinsDad was arguing along balance lines, and not upon the wording of the feat or of the classes. As game balance is not a matter of the wording of the rules but rather their implimentation, when you argue balance you argue "how the rules should be used"; you do not argue "what the rules are", which I have been.

Actually, I was not so much arguing as pointing out to Danny who claimed that there were no apparent balance issues that yes indeed, there are. Very obvious ones when one looks.

As for rules, it's simple and there was no need to repeat all of the rules reasons. But, it basically boils down to:

Rule A: Sorcerer can only learn class spells (or unusual spells with DM permission)
Rule B: Sorcerer can learn an additional spell

If unlike Expanded Knowledge, Rule B does not state that it overrides Rule A, it does not.