Extra Spell

[wildstarsreach]

You'll note that KarinsDad was arguing along balance lines, and not upon the wording of the feat or of the classes. As game balance is not a matter of the wording of the rules but rather their implimentation, when you argue balance you argue "how the rules should be used"; you do not argue "what the rules are", which I have been.

As they're completely different lines of argument, it's rather hard for one to prove the other, as you opined, "wrong". Thus my reply.


My opinion as well.

Note I've recommended selecting another spell for the feat.

Regardless of of the feat wording, many times and this is why a lot of people think the FAQ gets it wrong is that they more often rule towards game balance.

 

[Felix]

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

And no doubt that taking a feat, one of 7 the sorcerer is guaranteed to get, is unable to represent that "some understanding of by study".

Not going to happen in this case.

A first.

The opposite conclusion is based upon a rather weak argument

To which you've not rebutted. If it's so weak, then by all means: topple it. Which particular premise do you take exception to?

Primarily they pick their spells from the sor/wiz list. When they don't, they pick from just the Sor list.

Cite this rule please.

And considering the description allows that the sorcerer may choose "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study", perhaps you suggest that spells off of other lists are "usual", and so don't qualify for the sorcerer as unusual?

The wording is vague. It is not specific as Artoomis, RigaMortis2, et al are claiming. "If not the Sor/Wiz list, then the Sor list", indeed; spun from wholecloth. Yes, it is reasonable to restrict the sorcerer to the Sor/Wiz list, but it is not compulsory.

 

[irdeggman]

And no doubt that taking a feat, one of 7 the sorcerer is guaranteed to get, is unable to represent that "some understanding of by study".

Go to the section on learning spells (my other text quote) that "explains how this happens". It also states that approval (DM's in the PHB) is required.

Don't rely on one location and a single sentence, look for more that either support, decry or clarify the rules.


Also don't use a setting example as one that applies to the general rule.

 

[KarinsDad]

And no doubt that taking a feat, one of 7 the sorcerer is guaranteed to get, is unable to represent that "some understanding of by study".

It could with DM permission.

But, the feat as written does not state that it does this (unlike Expanded Knowledge which explicitly states it).

So sure, with DM permission, a more liberal reading of most any feat can be made. That does not change the fact of what is actually (not) written there for this feat. An exception is not written, hence, it only exists with DM Caveat.

The feat does not state is as an expection to the general learning rule. WotC (through the FAQ and Cust Serv) states it as not an exception. I really wonder why people are still discussing it. Seems crystal clear.

 

[Artoomis]

And ...To which you've not rebutted. If it's so weak, then by all means: topple it. Which particular premise do you take exception to? ...

Your whole argument comes from the wrong perspective. The normal rule is that you get to select spells from your class spell list - Sorceror description notwithstanding.

This places the burden of proof of selecting ANY spell (regardless of class list) using "Extra Spell" to be squarely upon the shoulders of those who would like the rules to allow that. This burden has not yet been overcome.

Simple as that, really. There is no permise to argue against, really, - it is you who must explain how the normal rule has been specifically changed by this feat - especially in light of the very different and specific wording in the otherwise virtually identical psionic feat. I have not yet seen any such explanation.

So, to this point, I see any reading of "Extra Spell" to allow a selection form another class' spell list to be, at best, an extremely odd and incorrect hyper-technical reading of the rules.

In other words, I think you are just fooling yourself to think that your reading is really a legitimate reading of the rules.

That said, the rules are really just a starting point for any game, and any DM is free to interpret the rules in any way at all - including ways that the vast majority (about 90% if the poll is to be believed) of us would not do so.

So..., here's the deal:

1. The overwhelming majority of us would not allow your reading.
2. The "official" ruling (FAQ) is that only class spell lists are allowed, as normal.
3. If you can convince your DM, more power to you... and that's all that really matter in the end, right?

However, if you intend to the arguments in this thread to convince your DM, I think you will fail.

 

[Artoomis]

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

And no doubt that taking a feat, one of 7 the sorcerer is guaranteed to get, is unable to represent that "some understanding of by study".

First, a feat is not needed to gain "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study." Only DM approval of the new spell - along with, I suppose, appropriate research time, etc.

The feat is needed to add this new spell as an additional spell known above the normal limit.

This feat has NO VALUE for a wizard, as they may know "any number of spells," though, as WotC customer service suggests, could be used as a game mechanism for the DM to allow certain very unusual spells that normally cannot even be successfully researched.

For a sorcerer or bard, increasing the number of known spells is a very big deal and having a feat that does only that seems perfectly fine (from a game balance and original intent point of view).

Finally, note that spell descriptions contain:

"Level
The next line of a spell description gives the spell’s level, a number between 0 and 9 that defines the spell’s relative power. This number is preceded by an abbreviation for the class whose members can cast the spell. "

This further reinforces that classes may only cast (and therefore "know") certain spells. Anything else must be specifically allowed somehow or allowed by DM permission only.

 

[Thanee]

I also think that the name Extra Spell sounds more like just another spell, as opposed to Expanded Knowledge, which sounds like more.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RigaMortus2]

Cite this rule please.

That IS the rule. you quoted it yourself. I'll cite it though, even though it seems redundant.

a sorcerer draws his spell primarily from the sor/wiz spell list

So, if a Sorcerer DOESN'T draw a spell from the sor/wiz list, where else do they draw it from? The only "list" left is just the Sorcerer list (which the Wizard is not a part of). Other than that, the DM has to decide to allow spells off of other lists. Which, if you bothered to quote EVERYTHING in my last post, I already stated:

...Tthere are a few spells in PHB2 and Spell Compendium that a Sorcerer can cast, but a Wizard does not. Other than that, it is up to the DM to allow other spells. These usually come from research or custom made spells. I don't think a Sorc can learn Cure Light Wounds, but they could learn a similiar (custom) spell that has the exact same effect. Again, up to the DM.

And considering the description allows that the sorcerer may choose "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study", perhaps you suggest that spells off of other lists are "usual", and so don't qualify for the sorcerer as unusual?

Yeah, they are usual. Other classes cast them all the time, quite frequently. Especially if they are from the PHB. If you want to learn Cure Light Wounds off of the Cleric spell list, the DM has to decide to allow that or not. I don't see any problem RAW-wise with allowing a Sorcerer to create a custom spell that duplicates Cure Light Wounds (I guess we are getting into semantics territory here). The other thing you have to consider is how a Sorcerer "studies unusual spells". Again, that to me seems like something the DM has to adjucate.

The wording is vague. It is not specific as Artoomis, RigaMortis2, et al are claiming. "If not the Sor/Wiz list, then the Sor list", indeed; spun from wholecloth.

This is extrapolated, like you have to do with many unclear rules. You have to ask yourself, what do they mean about "primarily" from the Sorc/Wiz list? Then you have to ask yourself if there are any other class lists that the Sorcerer qualifies for to learn spells from (in this case, there is a small list with spells that JUST a Sorcerer can cast) w/o any DM fiat. Anything else is DM fiat.

Yes, it is reasonable to restrict the sorcerer to the Sor/Wiz list, but it is not compulsory.

If that is the case, then the DM is using Rule 0.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The text in OA expands the sorcerer's list of spells to include the Wu Jen's spells for OA "setting" not as two separate lists.

Actually, the language in OA indicates sorcerers must choose one or the other list, they cannot choose from both the Sorc/Wiz list AND the Wu Jen list.

So, if a Sorcerer DOESN'T draw a spell from the sor/wiz list, where else do they draw it from? The only "list" left is just the Sorcerer list (which the Wizard is not a part of).

I'm not aware of any Sorcerer-only spells...

As for "the only list left," I'm forced to argue that there are several.

The feat does not state is as an expection to the general learning rule. WotC (through the FAQ and Cust Serv) states it as not an exception. I really wonder why people are still discussing it. Seems crystal clear.

Because it is also crystal clear that several of us disagree with the ruling.

Lets be honest here- even the most pro-FAQ players feel there are rulings that they disagree with. I'm sure every poster in this thread can point to one FAQ ruling they'd never play with.

This is one of mine.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In case anyone is wondering- my posts reveal how I'd administer the Feat.

I'm not representing at all how it would be administered by other DMs in our group.

While most are much more conservative than I am- in most of their campaigns, you can forget anything outside of the Core, with some exceptions (and some still don't run 3.5)- their rulings on particular feats, spells and other things have varied.