Extra Spell

[KarinsDad]

IOW- its not how the Feat was originally designed. They decided afterwards that the Feat as written would cause a significant power imbalance between the magic system and the psionics system...

It is how the feat was originally designed. You are reading into every sentence (both in RAW and by Cust Serv) things that are not there.

If it were originally designed as allowing spells outside the spell list, it would state it with something like: Normal: spells cannot be chosen off the caster's normal spell list.


As for balance, Psions get about 170 powers to choose from and Expanded Knowledge gives them about another 100+, many discipline ones for which Sorcerers already get equivalent spells. That feat was designed with those fewer number of powers in mind.

Sorcerers already get well over 600 spells to choose from (all WotC sources, ~350 spells in the PHB alone). Allowing them to choose from another 1000+ spells which they are denied for specific balance reasons is way out of balance.

I think you do not quite get the concept of balance in this regard. It refers to spell synergy, not just the ability to have a specific spell.

For example, Polymorphing into a specific creature might be balanced. However, following that up by changing into a Colossal form of that creature with a Wu Jen spell might suddenly be very unbalanced.

The more spells suddenly opened up for use, the more spell synergy possibilities that are created. The Psionic ones are controlled. From 3E to 3.5, certain feats / powers were modified / removed to get rid of certain synergies in the Psionic system. This cannot be done when you open up all spells for Arcane casters.

And, these synergies can be controlled with certain PrCs like Mystic Theurge since the caster is at least 3 levels lower (4 for a Sorcerer) with his spells in each class. This does not happen with your interpretation of this feat.

Opening up all spells for an Arcane caster is VERY unbalanced.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Specifically?

"You learn one additional spell."

Those words. Sift them how you like you'll not find within them one ounce of restriction. Please tell me what words, specifically, in the feat say, "must be from within the class' spell list".

Well, there is the problem. The restriction is not listed in the feat. It is the default restriction placed upon (most) spell casters. That restriction being that they can only cast spells from their class' spell list. So while you might be able to "learn one additional spell", the spell that you do learn is not added to your spell list and thus can not be cast. I'll fire the same question back at you...

Please tell me what words, specifically, in the feat say, "add this spell to your class' spell list".

 

[Artoomis]

Please tell me what words, specifically, in the feat say, "add this spell to your class' spell list".

Exactly. That is what is required if such a signifcant rule change was to be made by this feat. Without that, the default rule of spells coming from your own class list only still applies.

Contrast this feat with Expanded Knowledge, which includes the text, "You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list. "

Without that sort of text you cannot choose from another class' spell list.

At least that's the way I would play it.

 

[Mort]

Exactly. That is what is required if such a signifcant rule change was to be made by this feat. Without that, the default rule of spells coming from your own class list only still applies.

Contrast this feat with Expanded Knowledge, which includes the text, "You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list. "

Without that sort of text you cannot choose from another class' spell list.

At least that's the way I would play it.

Not only that, but expanded knowledge does use the word "add" not "learn" in addition to the explicit language above. It simply seems the designers chose not to use the same explicit permisive language.
To me, The very fact that the 2 feats are so close except for the clear language allowing off-list selection shows that Extra Spell wasn't meant to go off-list; and that's the way I would interpret the RAW. In my own game, if it's a reasonable spell and the circumstances are such that the mage can't research it, I could be persuaded otherwise, but that's IMC.

 

[takasi]

Is that your relationship?

Not in this particular campaign. We are both players in this one.

Our last session was a week ago and our next session is tonight. So many posts have passed....

 

[Felix]

It is the default restriction placed upon (most) spell casters.

Quite right: most. So how does the feat work for those casters upon which this restriction is not placed? Can a sorcerer pick and cast Cure Light Wounds?

As far as the classes who allegedly operate under this mechanic, if the restriction is part of the class, and not a part of the feat, then why would the character not be able to choose any spell with the feat, even though he not be able to cast it? After all, a fighter may select Empower Spell as a feat, though he be incapable of using it.

At this point I'm not arguing that every caster be able to cast the spell chosen from the feat, merely that any spell is viably chosen with the feat. This would render a situation where any caster could choose any spell he liked with Extra Spell, but unless his class' rules allowed him to use it, the spell would be useless to him; as useless as Empower Spell for a pure fighter.

Please tell me what words, specifically, in the feat say, "add this spell to your class' spell list".

It does not. What it does do is say you learn the spell and directly ties "learning" a spell to making it a "spell known". The sorcerer description says two relevant things; a sorcerer can cast all of his spells known; a sorcerer draws his spell primarily from the sor/wiz spell list.

So, we have a class that can cast all of his spells known.
We have a class whose spells must not necessarily come from the Sor/Wiz class list.
We have a feat which does not restrict the choice of spell.
We have a feat that makes the learned spell part of the character's spells known.

So how does "add this spell to your class' spell list" come into it, and why would you think I was advocating on those grounds?

Without that, the default rule of spells coming from your own class list only still applies.

Would you please cite this default rule and provide your analysis of how it interacts with the Sorcerer's description of his spells primarily coming from his class spell list? Thanks.

 

[Thanee]

...primarily...

I wonder what they thought when they put that word there...

Because I really don't think it is meant to allow Sorcerers to learn anything not on their class list (apart from entirely new spells, which are being researched maybe during the campaign).

But that's as good a guess as any other.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Felix]

I wonder what they thought when they put that word there...

Because I really don't think it is meant to allow Sorcerers to learn anything not on their class list (apart from entirely new spells, which are being researched maybe during the campaign).

But that's as good a guess as any other.

Bye
Thanee

It's a hell of a word, neh?

Opens up quite a door.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As for balance, Psions get about 170 powers to choose from and Expanded Knowledge gives them about another 100+, many discipline ones for which Sorcerers already get equivalent spells. That feat was designed with those fewer number of powers in mind.

Sorcerers already get well over 600 spells to choose from (all WotC sources, ~350 spells in the PHB alone). Allowing them to choose from another 1000+ spells which they are denied for specific balance reasons is way out of balance.

For those who were concerned that psionics must be banned from their campaigns because its better than magic (I'm not to be numbered among them), this FAQ just gives them more ammo.

Despite the vast number of spells available on the Sor/Wiz class lists, I'm more likely to find people on these boards complaining about how Psions & Wilders outdo those core classes despite having 1/4th the number of powers as the Sorcerers and Wizards have spells.

However, between that little word "primarily" in the rules regarding Sorcerers (as well as the OA option of Sorcerers using the Wu Jen list) opening an interesting door for DMs & Players alike to look through, and the ability of a Wizard to learn, copy and add any spell in the game to his spellbook via Independent Research, neither of these 2 classes is likely to suffer significantly from having Extra Spell limiting their options to class lists only- its the lesser caster classes that will.

Why?

Expanded Knowledge is not limited to Psions. Any psionic PC capable of manifesting powers can utilize this Feat. A PsyWar, Lurk, or any other manifesting class can gain access to the "most broken" powers on the Psion list, greatly expanding their power. As I recall, Energy Missile was among the most complained about on these boards.

Meanwhile, the Bard composes his "Ode to Broken Game Balance" lamenting his inability to ever gain Magic Missile or Fireball.

 

[wildstarsreach]

It is how the feat was originally designed. You are reading into every sentence (both in RAW and by Cust Serv) things that are not there.

If it were originally designed as allowing spells outside the spell list, it would state it with something like: Normal: spells cannot be chosen off the caster's normal spell list.


As for balance, Psions get about 170 powers to choose from and Expanded Knowledge gives them about another 100+, many discipline ones for which Sorcerers already get equivalent spells. That feat was designed with those fewer number of powers in mind.

Sorcerers already get well over 600 spells to choose from (all WotC sources, ~350 spells in the PHB alone). Allowing them to choose from another 1000+ spells which they are denied for specific balance reasons is way out of balance.

I think you do not quite get the concept of balance in this regard. It refers to spell synergy, not just the ability to have a specific spell.

For example, Polymorphing into a specific creature might be balanced. However, following that up by changing into a Colossal form of that creature with a Wu Jen spell might suddenly be very unbalanced.

The more spells suddenly opened up for use, the more spell synergy possibilities that are created. The Psionic ones are controlled. From 3E to 3.5, certain feats / powers were modified / removed to get rid of certain synergies in the Psionic system. This cannot be done when you open up all spells for Arcane casters.

And, these synergies can be controlled with certain PrCs like Mystic Theurge since the caster is at least 3 levels lower (4 for a Sorcerer) with his spells in each class. This does not happen with your interpretation of this feat.

Opening up all spells for an Arcane caster is VERY unbalanced.

This is probably the best description of why the more liberal interpretation would be wrong.