Facing, long creatures and other things

[SableWyvern]

Minor, semi, sort of, just barely maybe a rant type thing to begin:

Only sort of quasi-relevant to the main purpose of my post, but I would just like to dispel the myth that facing does not exist in 3e. The two most obvious examples are flying creatures, which have distinctive forward and backward flying attributes, and mounted characters, who sit on the back half of their horses. 80' long dragons being able to bite in all directions is potentially a little silly as well...

Ahhh.

Having got that off my chest, I have some questions regarding long creatures, and how other DMs handle their movement.

1. Can long creatures be aligned diagonally? If so, how do you deal with this?

2. How does a long creature turn? 10' of movement to rotate 90 degrees (for a 5' x 10' critter)? Something else? Do you rotate from the front, back or either way? What about something that's 80' long?

Obviously, these questions are only really relvant if you are using a grid for combat resolution.

Personally, I believe that to honestly represent a lack of direction-specific facing, everything should have a square face - but that's got potential problems of is own.

 

[kreynolds]

2. How does a long creature turn? 10' of movement to rotate 90 degrees (for a 5' x 10' critter)? Something else? Do you rotate from the front, back or either way? What about something that's 80' long?

Have you ever turned 180 degrees in one place? Spun around on your heel? Creatures can do that too. They don't really need to move a certain distance before they can turn around. After all, they aren't boats or planes. Also, most creatures that are 80' long are ones like a purple worm. The purple worm can coil itself as well, so it doesn't actually need 80' to turn in any direction.

 

[SableWyvern]

Clarification

I didn't mean to imply that forward movement be required before turning. I was pondering whether or not the act of turning in and of itself should cost movement.

For example, if a creature turns 90 degrees, paying 5' per square moved through (thus, 10' for a standard large, long critter), it uses up 10' of its allotted movement.

I've actually just come up with another question - can a long creature take all its movement sideways? By the rules, it should be possible to make a full charge sideways, should it not? What about backwards?

NB: rule0 is all well and good - and requisite in this circumstance, if backwards charges are possible. I'm just pondering the specifics of the rules in this instance.

 

[gnfnrf]

1. Can long creatures be aligned diagonally? If so, how do you deal with this?

Yes. See Song And Silence, page 86 for an example of it.

How do you handle it? You just... do. For a 5x10 base creature, it occupies two diagonnaly adjacent squares.

2. How does a long creature turn? 10' of movement to rotate 90 degrees (for a 5' x 10' critter)? Something else? Do you rotate from the front, back or either way? What about something that's 80' long?

Creatures using land movement types have no turning restrictions. Most long creatures have flexible bodies or numerous legs which would allow them to turn quite nimbly.

If a particular creature is supposed to be very unmaneuverable, it will need special rules.

--
gnfnrf

 

[SableWyvern]

Re: Re: Facing, long creatures and other things

Creatures using land movement types have no turning restrictions. Most long creatures have flexible bodies or numerous legs which would allow them to turn quite nimbly.

If a particular creature is supposed to be very unmaneuverable, it will need special rules.

--
gnfnrf

Alrighty. Then an 80' critter that turns 90 degrees gets a bonus 40' of movement. Can it turn 180 degrees and get a bonus 80 feet?

I'm not trying to be argumentative merely for the sake of it here, I just think this is a very vague area of the rules that requires some degree of clarification. Every answer seems to have some potential problem.

 

[Gromm]

Re: Re: Facing, long creatures and other things

Have you ever turned 180 degrees in one place? Spun around on your heel? Creatures can do that too. They don't really need to move a certain distance before they can turn around. After all, they aren't boats or planes. Also, most creatures that are 80' long are ones like a purple worm. The purple worm can coil itself as well, so it doesn't actually need 80' to turn in any direction.

I can do it pretty easily, but a horse can't.
Bipeds are more agile than four legged creatures in that respect, mostly because they can easily step to the side.
But alot of creatures aren't built like horse, snake like creatures, and even felines can turn around much quicker by turning back on their own bodies (just very flexible).
It would really depend on the animal, a big dog has a hard time turning itself around, whereas a mountain lion could do it without a problem.

 

[kreynolds]

There is a really good reason why it doesn't matter how a creature turns around...there's no such thing as face. If you don't face any particular direction, then you don't actually turn around either, cause you don't need to, cause you're not facing in any direction. So, if this entire thread is a matter of face, that's a different story.

 

[Gromm]

Well officially theres not facing, but when you get into Long creatures even WotC admits you end up with facing (though they don't have any gerat ideas for how to handle it).

For example

X

human no facing

XX

Horse- you cant tell me the top or the bottom of that is its face
its obviously facing either left or right

Things only get worse with larger creatures (dragons and tail sweep even say its only effective in the rear of the dragon- only theres supposedly no facing...).

For any 1x1 2x2 3x3 creature it doesnt matter, but for long creatures its starts to become an issue if they try to take a 5' step between 2 objects (ie trees, pillars, etc), and have to change thier orientation.
Thats what the thread is about, though theres no easy answer to the whole thing.

 

[kreynolds]

I see the real problem now. Take this illustration. The x's are humans and the o's represent a huge creature.

xxxx
xoox
xoox
xoox
xoox
xxxx

Essentially, under 3rd edition, since this creature doesn't have enough room to turn, it can't even move at all, thus it's trapped. Interesting.

 

[Number47]

This seems to be particular problem with the Dire Tiger. Its' size is a little odd for a Huge creature, 10' x 30'. I would think that it should be able to turn corners in a 10' wide corridor, but if you map it out, it looks a little odd. Then you wind up having half of its' occupied squares around one side. Add to that the fact that it can bite from the one half, then just as easily claw (front claws), somebody "behind" them. It may be odd, but I guess it's the difference between rules and roleplay.

The real question I need answered is, what counts as flanking for bigger creatures?

o1oo
oTTo
2TTo
oTTo
oTT3
oTTo
oTTo
ooo4

Between 1, 2, 3 & 4, who is flanking and with whom? T is the Dire Tiger.