Factors Affecting CR and EL

[Mark CMG]

I am honestly curious how you do this Shil.

I wonder if he will cite terrain as being one factor that allows for this disparity in levels?

 

[shilsen]

I am honestly curious how you do this Shil. If your group has a core caster, either cleric or wizard, they've got access to 7th level spells. That's some very serious firepower - a single Mass Suggestion and most of that group is toasty. Or a Huge Elemental is going to blitz through CR 4 or 5 creatures badly.

I wonder if he will cite terrain as being one factor that allows for this disparity in levels?

Terrain is sometimes a factor in such fights, and tactics more so. If the large group of weak creatures has a couple of smart leader-types to get them functioning as a team, they can be a challenge. If not, the PCs tend to roll them over easily. I'll try to dig up an encounter from the last few sessions that fits the bill and post the details.

And Hussar, since you mentioned spellcasters, my group includes a single-classed wizard, two single-classed druids (no animal companions, which were traded out for different benefits), and a paladin/cleric who casts as an 8th lvl cleric, so there's a whole lot of spellcasting in there. Without that, it would be much easier to use weaker creatures on them.

 

[shilsen]

Here's a more detailed answer to add to the above. I tend to do a number of different things, all of which combine to achieve the effect of making low CR enemies effective challenges. A few which come to mind:

1) Using templates and advanced creatures - I often use the mechanics for a creature from the MM and slap on a template or advance it, completely change the description, and end up with a new creature. Templates and hit dice advancement often create much stronger creatures than class-based advancement, I find. Something as basic as the half-dragon template gives a lot of bang for its buck to beef up a melee-oriented creature, arguably more than a couple of class levels (half-dragon being a +2 CR template) would. Similarly, slapping on 3 aberration HD (with an alienist and a Gatekeeper among the PCs in my Eberron game, aberrations are a very popular choice) gives you a whole lot for +1 CR. As does advancing a creature by one size category.

2) Teamwork - It's absolutely essential for making weaker enemies provide a challenge that they be able to function well tactically, which usually needs the presence of a couple of leader-types to justify. It also usually requires the use of varied abilities among the NPCs.

An EL 14 encounter should theoretically be challenging for five 13th lvl PCs (by the DMG definition of challenging, which means the PCs win without any real chance of losing a PC and use about 25% of their resources). 16 CR5 creatures would be an EL 14 encounter. But throw 16 Bbn5s at the PCs and they'll wipe the floor with them. Make them Bbn1/Ftr4s, with well-chosen feats and teamwork and they'll do a little better. Replace one of them with a Brd5, using the Song of the Heart feat and the Inspirational Boost spell to give every one of them an extra +3 to hit/dmg and things get a lot better. Replace three more of them with a Marshal, a Wizard, and a Cleric, and suddenly the situation becomes a whole lot better for the NPCs.

3) Terrain - As mentioned earlier, terrain can make a huge difference. Anything which slows down movement, lowers visibility, etc., will benefit the weaker enemies. Something providing a miss chance, for example, is less of an issue for the weak enemies. With their larger numbers, a significant number of their attacks will get through anyway. And every PC attack that doesn't get through was probably a killing blow or close to it. Terrain can also help a lot with...

4) Surprise & Preparation - Higher level PCs usually have a very large gulf between their efficacy when all prepared with buffs and protective spells and their un-buffed state. Lower-level NPCs don't have as much of a gulf, so if the fight occurs with both sides unprepared they have less to lose. And if the NPCs manage to surprise the PCs, then it can seriously change the equation even more.

I can probably think of a few other factors, but those are some basic general ones. Hope that helps.

 

[Hussar]

But, Shilsen, how do you get around the fact that any of the higher level spells simply mop the floor with these creatures? A Circle of Death spell wipes out half the forces. Even something as simple as a wall of fire spell will seriously impact these guys. Barbarian 1/Fighter 4 only has 35 hp's (roughly, assuming some CON bonuses). A 10 die fireball should kill any that don't make their saves and a second one ends the fight. Never mind the marshall, bard, and NPC wizard who died in the first fireball.

That was always my problem. Summon Monster 7 and Wall of Stone and the fight is over.

Then again, my bunch never went in for buffing all that much. Other than the bard that is. It wasn't until almost the end of the campaign that they had a cleric and they never had a wizard.

To be fair though, the Mob template from the DMG II is a sweet, sweet thing. That's FUN.

 

[MerricB]

Terrain is a *huge* factor in mass combats. I really can't state how having a large field with obstacles in it makes it much easier for the larger side than the 10' corridor of standard D&D fare.

Some low-level monsters have surprisingly large numbers of HP. I've been using 4th level frost dwarf fighters of late - AC 20+, HP 30+. A 10th level fireball does 35 damage on average, and several of these fighters will make their saves.

Add in one high-level spellcaster, and you have a wall of forces the PCs must overcome before they can get to the really dangerous opponent.

Orcs are also great for this, because - even if they don't hit often - they do a lot of damage when they do hit.

Lizardfolk are puny, however.

Cheers!

 

[Hussar]

Terrain is a *huge* factor in mass combats. I really can't state how having a large field with obstacles in it makes it much easier for the larger side than the 10' corridor of standard D&D fare.

Some low-level monsters have surprisingly large numbers of HP. I've been using 4th level frost dwarf fighters of late - AC 20+, HP 30+. A 10th level fireball does 35 damage on average, and several of these fighters will make their saves.

Add in one high-level spellcaster, and you have a wall of forces the PCs must overcome before they can get to the really dangerous opponent.

Orcs are also great for this, because - even if they don't hit often - they do a lot of damage when they do hit.

Lizardfolk are puny, however.

Cheers!

Not sure what a Frost Dwarf is, so that might be what's confusing me. But, a 4th level fighter has a +1 Ref save. 13th level wizard likely has an 18 Int, making his Fireball save DC 16. That means that 3/4 of the fighters should fail on a save. Go up to something like Acid Fog and they're stuck in acidic glue. Sure they might get out eventually, but, they'll be pretty chewed up by the end. 4th level fighter might have 30 hp, but 8d6 points of damage with no save will kill them just as dead. And I haven't even brought out the big guns yet. Cleric drops a Blade Barrier for 13d6 points of damage and again, 3/4 of the forces get turned into art deco.

 

[shilsen]

But, Shilsen, how do you get around the fact that any of the higher level spells simply mop the floor with these creatures? A Circle of Death spell wipes out half the forces. Even something as simple as a wall of fire spell will seriously impact these guys. Barbarian 1/Fighter 4 only has 35 hp's (roughly, assuming some CON bonuses). A 10 die fireball should kill any that don't make their saves and a second one ends the fight. Never mind the marshall, bard, and NPC wizard who died in the first fireball.

Circle of Death's not mattered in this group, with the alienist having Necromancy and Illusion as banned schools, and a Fireball doesn't go that far against low-level critters with high Con. Especially since I give many of my NPCs a flat 75% of their max potential rolled hit die (so 12 out of 4d4, 27 out of 6d6, etc.) to make up for some of the stuff my PCs are getting.

Consider some elite CR4 gnolls I used against my PCs when they were 11th level. The gnolls were either axe-wielders (Bbn2/Rgr1) or archers (Rgr2/Ftr1). Here are a few salient stats:

Gnoll Bbn2/Rgr1: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 18; 3d8+2d12+20 (56 hp); AC 17; BAB/Grp +4/+10; MW Battleaxe +12 (1d8+9/x3 or 1d8+11/x3 vs. humans); Raging - 66 hp, attack +14 (1d8+12/x3 or 1d8+14/x3 vs. humans).

Gnoll Rgr2/Ftr1; Str 14, Dex 18, Con 18; 4d8+1d10+20 (52 hp); AC 19; BAB/Grp +4/+6; Comp. longbow +10 or +8/+8 (1d8+2/x3 or 1d8+4 vs humans); vs. targets within 30 ft with Frost arrows: Comp longbow +11 or +9/+9 (1d8+1d6 cold+4/x3 or 1d8+1d6 cold+6 vs humans); vs. targets within 30 ft + Bane arrows (vs humans): Comp longbow +13 or +11/+11 (1d8+2d6+8/x3)

These guys were backed up by a couple of CR6 ogres (Brb1/Ftr2): Str 28, Dex 12, Con 18; 70 hp; AC 20; BAB/Grp +6/+19; MW Greatsword +16/11 melee (3d6+13/19-20); when raging - Str 32, Con 22, 84 hp, MW Greatsword +18/13 melee (3d6+16/19-20)

They also had an 8th lvl adept commanding them, who helped a lot with the tactics. The NPCs were spread out over a number of rooms, so while the PCs beat up the two gnolls they encountered first (after having announced their arrival by fireballing the three War2s they had as guards outside), the others realized that something was up and got to buff up by swigging a potion of Bull's Str, Cat's Grace and Bear's Endurance each. And the attack came from three directions, so the PCs had to split their attention, especially when the raging ogres with Awesome Blow were knocking PCs and summoned creatures around

By the time the fight was over, two PCs were below -10 and the other two had fled, badly wounded. Admittedly the PCs had been expecting a much easier fight and had gone in cocky and taking it easy, but it would still have taken some serious work on their part to win.

 

[Hussar]

They also had an 8th lvl adept commanding them,

Ah, and there's the kicker. A much higher level guy mixed into the mess with the creatures also somewhat inflated by having higher than average hp's. Ok. That makes sense.

I would point out that the adept and the ogres alone are EL 10. Depending on how many gnolls we're talking about, this could easily be considered a much higher EL encounter. 6 of your elite gnolls would bring it up to EL 11 (maxed - a 7th jumps it to EL 12)

Sweet fight though. Well done you.

 

[shilsen]

Ah, and there's the kicker. A much higher level guy mixed into the mess with the creatures also somewhat inflated by having higher than average hp's. Ok. That makes sense.

I would point out that the adept and the ogres alone are EL 10.

I wouldn't call the adept a much higher level guy. Even by the core rules he's CR7, and that's grossly overestimating the value of the NPC classes. My personal rule of thumb is that Warrior, Adept and Aristocrat have a CR of 3/4 x level, while Expert and Commoner are at 1/2 x level. I'd put the adept at CR6, esp. since he (like the other NPCs) was a little underequipped for their level.

Also, remember that my PCs are significantly more powerful than core levels, with much higher wealth than recommended, have a number of house rules that help them significantly (e.g. the metamagic rules from UA which lets them use metamagic feats without using higher level slots), and get action pts or swashbuckling cards too. The NPCs are much closer to core power levels than the PCs are.

Speaking of equipment, that's one thing which can make a difference too. NPCs with a lot of cheap single-use items can be a lot more effective than those with permanent magical items. A +1 weapon and +1 armor in the hands or a low-level enemy are unlikely to make much difference, but a Bead of Force (which'll work out cheaper than the weapon & armor combo) will definitely inflict damage and maybe take a PC out of the fight temporarily. A magical bow will inflict some extra damage, but a bunch of flaming (or bane) arrows will do a whole lot more.

Depending on how many gnolls we're talking about, this could easily be considered a much higher EL encounter. 6 of your elite gnolls would bring it up to EL 11 (maxed - a 7th jumps it to EL 12)

IIRC, it was the adept (CR 7), 2 ogres (CR 6 each), six axe-users (CR 4 each) and four archers (CR 4 each). That's EL 12, which should be pretty easy for a 4 person 11th lvl party.

Sweet fight though. Well done you.

Thanks.

 

[Doug McCrae]

NPCs with a lot of cheap single-use items can be a lot more effective than those with permanent magical items. A +1 weapon and +1 armor in the hands or a low-level enemy are unlikely to make much difference, but a Bead of Force (which'll work out cheaper than the weapon & armor combo) will definitely inflict damage and maybe take a PC out of the fight temporarily. A magical bow will inflict some extra damage, but a bunch of flaming (or bane) arrows will do a whole lot more.

I've noticed that myself. Not only that it means the PCs don't get the treasure, double whammy! I'd give all my NPCs javelins of lightning but the players would lynch me. Not keen on bead of force as it takes a PC out the fight completely, which means the player is reduced to a spectator.

The 75% hit points thing changes your game a bit, making AoEs less effective than in standard D&D so mooks are more of a threat. Those gnolls had very high stats. That and the chance to use their potions puts them well above cr4 imo.

PS Thanks for the extremely detailed post and combat stats.