fair variant?: swap rogue's traps for bard's lore

[CRGreathouse]

I think that the trap abilities are weak and that bardic knowledge is pretty strong, so I wouldn't allow the trade.

 

[Terath Ninir]

I wouldn't for the following reason. The type of rogue that would take bardic lore instead of trapfinding would not get much out of trapfinding. They are probably not taking the search skill to save skill points for social or other skills. Bardic lore is a pure extra ability for this rogue. They don't need to spend skill points and will get useful information from time to time. I never allow a character to give up something useless for any type of bonus.

Well, I don't think that sort of logic is particularly good, myself. Why saddle a character with a useless ability? Why not let them get something useful?

However, for my campaign, bardic lore is just better than trapfinding. But it depends on the campaign. If you're going through RttToElemental Evil, then switching out bardic lore for trapfinding dangerously weakens the rogue. It all depends on how you play the game.

 

[Kelleris]

Yeah, I agree with Cyberzombie here. Besides, it's quite bizarre that a rogue would have taken the time to learn how to find high-DC traps (the traps ability) without taking the time to learn how to find high-DC traps (the search skill). I cannot fathom a situation in which the rogue's training would work that way.

That said, I would not let someone get bardic knowledge for the trap-related abilities. BK is far too useful in my games. But then, I'm always surprised when I see people here complaining that nobody ever takes Knowledge skills.

 

[Undead Lincoln]

I stay with it, because that kind of reasoning is necessary. Suppose I suggest the following. I would like my ranger to lose proficiency with all martial weapons besides bows in exchange for weapon focus (longbow). You would not allow it, because I simply would not use those weapons even without that ability, but in exchange I would get a usefull ability with the weapon I do use.

I might well allow the rogue bardic knowledge because I like being able to give my PCs bits of information and because my players (in general) would tell the whole party. So the rogue wouldn't be showing up any other character (unless someone was actually playing a bard). However, I can't say that the two rogues are balanced with eachothe. It also cuts into the attractivness of playing a bard.

 

[ARandomGod]

... It also cuts into the attractivness of playing a bard.

I was following along right up to this point. Are you attempting to imply here that there's some attractiveness to playing a bard?

(You're not fooling anyone, you know.)

 

[Crothian]

I was following along right up to this point. Are you attempting to imply here that there's some attractiveness to playing a bard?

The Bard is a very good and effective class.

 

[Li Shenron]

Both abilities are somewhat campaign-dependent (or DM-style dependent) and in fact someone has that they rarely have traps and the other that they have a lot.

Both abilities are of good benefit for the whole party, but while Bardic Music is a complete optional (definitely useful, but not necessary at all), Trapfinding is more critical because - depending on the adventure - it can be anything from almost useless to very necessary.

Overall I think it's a fair swap anyway

 

[ARandomGod]

The Bard is a very good and effective class.

I see, you're saying it's advanced.
And that makes all the difference.

Yea, actually it gets a pretty bad rap in the groups I play with. And it's not like we play a non-social type campaign, either. It's also never been my style, but I can easily see how it could be good. Just it seems noone thinks it is!