Falling Dire Bear

[Li Shenron]

Someone from an Italian D&D messageboard wants to try this tactic for his Druid: first, he is going to wildshape into a bat and try to fly a little more than 10ft over some evil Wizard's head; then, he wants to wildshape into a Dire Bear and crush the Wizard.

From the "Falling Damage" chapter I think he would get 1d6 of falling damage himself, but perhaps he should be considered to deliberately jump and the damage would be nonlethal.

From the "Falling Objects" chapter, a Dire Bear of 2700Kg (I think around 5400lb) deals from at least 10ft of height something like 27d6 damage. I think the limit of 20d6 applies only to extra damage for falling from greater height, but not to damage from weight.

That's a lot of damage.

We are trying to find out if at least some Reflex ST should be granted by the rules, but the only thing I can find (in the Traps chapter) is that crushing wall-types of traps use a Melee Attack, and sometimes they even "never miss" but rather have an onset delay.

Any help?

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

6,000 pounds for a dire bear (from the MM; a kilogram is 2.2 pounds), almost 3 metric tons! Damn that's a big bear.

The falling damage chapter indeed specifies 1d6 point of damage for every 200 pounds.

A wildshaping druid needs a standard action to change forms, correct? That should give the potential victim some time to react, but a Reflex save for half probably won't do him any good... If you make it a touch attack (say +2 because of charge, but -4 because that's not a move characters are trained for), a Wildshape is a standard action, and an attack is also a standard action, and, unless hasted (whatever) a character can't make 2 standard actions in the same round. Could that solve your problem?

AR

 

[Mephistopheles]

Perhaps take a look at the rules for dragon crush attacks and base a mechanic on that.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

6,000 pounds for a dire bear (from the MM; a kilogram is 2.2 pounds), almost 3 metric tons! Damn that's a big bear.

The falling damage chapter indeed specifies 1d6 point of damage for every 200 pounds.

A wildshaping druid needs a standard action to change forms, correct? That should give the potential victim some time to react, but a Reflex save for half probably won't do him any good... If you make it a touch attack (say +2 because of charge, but -4 because that's not a move characters are trained for), a Wildshape is a standard action, and an attack is also a standard action, and, unless hasted (whatever) a character can't make 2 standard actions in the same round. Could that solve your problem?

AR

Makes sense that it would be an attack, though. There's no guarantee that they'll be directly overhead, or that some inertia left from the bat form as they are shifting form will prevent them from falling straight down.

If you think of a slightly different tactic including two druids...

One's a large eagle, one's a medium animal. The large eagle flys up with the medium in it's claws. The eagle starts a dive attack, and release the medium at it's target. At this point, the eagle has made an attack - attack roll and damage roll - but the medium, if it has a ready action to 'shape on release, can transform as a standard action into a dire bear for impact.

'Course, I can see where I would personally think that that setup is a blatant abuse of the combat abstraction rules, but still.

However, whether it's on a dive or on a fall, you still need an attack roll. Otherwise, your flying/levitating mages will start dropping arrows daggers, and summoned monsters on combatants below with auto hits. Bad precedent.

So if the 'shape is a standard action, and the attack is not a move action - they cannot shape and attack - yet they are falling, so this probably doesn't seem to help. However, if the druid were in my game, I'd adopt the stance that his wild shape WAS his attack... After all, if he is in a 10' sqare room with a goblin and 'shapes into a huge dire bear, chances are that the goblin is squished. I'd make him roll an attack roll, then damage dependent on the amount of weight (only if there was a chance of survival) and be done with it.

So go ahead, fly over him and wild shape into a dire bear. Now roll an attack roll (ranged attack makes sense, as does ranged touch attack - GM to call it) to see if you actually hit him.

It's a clever idea (if a touch unoriginal), and such things should be rewarded. Of course, all the standard mage defenses (blue, mirror, etc) work against it, so it's not terribly unbalanced.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Does a bullrush in the vertical do damage ? That is what is sounds like.

What about a Dire Bear with fly spell that "crashes" into someone ? Not that different especially since he would at 90 feet speed. It would seem that the damage caused by falling on people is larger than the Bear attacking them with claws and bites... which can be silly and unbalanced.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

You all forget that the wizard has an active mislead, and that his illusion overlaps a very sturdy adamantine spike that points straight up.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The druid knows he'll take the same damage as the target, right?

 

[Allanon]

Well although it isn't strictly in the rules in Return of the King the same thing is tried against Sam... And he gets an AoO against Shelob and proceeds to pierce her with Sting. Shouldn't the same thing happen in this case? The person about to be crushed being given an AoO which is an automatic critical hit? Or the choice between taking the damage and getting an AoO or taking a reflex save (with a cumulative +2 to DC for every size category the object is larger than the target)?

Just my €0,02

 

[Darklone]

If Refl save, then Refl negates.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

D20 Modern has much better rules for falling objects and creatures.