False dichotomies and other fallacies RPGers use

And the resultant form:

Never Give Up, Never Surrender: The other guy wins if you give up or have no more time to continue, so you hang on well past the point where even you yourself feel there is anything to be gained, but you can't let the other guy win by default.

OY! I resemb... I mean, I resent that.... :angel:

I'm getting better, I swear.

How about

The over analysis of the Example:

- When provided with an example, instead of trying to parse the intent of the example, I will hammer away at the example for pages until the disagreement is more about the example than the original point.

and

The Reliance on the Vague:

- I will use terms that have dozens of internally conflicting meanings and then cry foul when someone interprets my point in a way I don't like. AKA Using the -y Clause.
 

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ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
1 Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you; it's too complicated for you to understand. 4e exists whether you like it or not.
2 Therefore, 4e exists.

ARGUMENT FROM NUMBERS
1 Billions of people play 4e.
2 They can't all be wrong, can they?
3 Therefore, 4e exists.

...

ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
1 4e exists.
2 I don't give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
3 Therefore, 4e exists.

I actually think these three are valid. B-)
 

The "that's a fallacy" fallacy, i.e. calling something a fallacy when it isn't. Example: see above.

The fallacy fallacy is legitimate, though chrono22 hasn't quite characterized it correctly. It's the error of assuming that just because one particular argument for a given conclusion is fallacious, the conclusion must be false. This is easily disproven by simply observing that you can make up a fallacious argument for any conclusion, including obviously true ones.
 

Heh. I'm probably guilty of a few of those :p

I'm sure we all have from time to time, even if we didn't intend to. That's language for ya, and part of being human.


The Reliance on the Vague:

- I will use terms that have dozens of internally conflicting meanings and then cry foul when someone interprets my point in a way I don't like. AKA Using the -y Clause.

The over analysis of the Example:

- When provided with an example, instead of trying to parse the intent of the example, I will hammer away at the example for pages until the disagreement is more about the example than the original point.

Those two were good twists and obverses of these two:

Ass-umptus Maximus: You didn't really say this (or that), but I'm assuming it's obviously what you meant, and even if I could easily verify your real point by asking you a few simple questions, it's just more fun to argue my assumption than the exactness of your point. Assumptions are fun after all!

Misunderstandus Inexplicipus: For some inexplicable reason I cannot yet fathom your point, and so therefore, since you didn't make it plain enough, your reasoning is naturally faulty. (You failed to communicate in such a way that I could easily understand you, therefore, you must be an idiot!)

I think these kinda things are best explained by understanding the inherent limitations of language, but modern folks, especially Geeks and Nerds (and I'm not using those terms in the derogatory sense, but in the descriptive sense) think that human language oughtta work like some kinda current software language, and the truth is it just doesn't and probably never will. So rather than seeking to clarify what might be implied (and human language is filled with unexpressed yet underlying implications), each Geek and Nerd has their own "database of denotative definitions" (Geeks especially I have noticed often have a very hard time distinguishing vagueness and metaphor in communications) which they immediately assume must be "correct in all circumstances." The typical Geek does not connote well I have observed, or easily detect implied statements of irony and so forth, and I think this is probably the result of modern society's way of educating people and the current typical and standardized way of using language, like it is a mere "technical function." Anyways, that's my observation, and this modern way of using language leads to some silly and amusing arguments to me, because often when I read some argument on the internet the first thought that occurs to me is, "these guys are arguing pretty much the same thing is the same way with pretty much the same language, and they are only off by less than a degree in terminology, yet to them you'd think one guy is speaking Swahili and the other guy a dialect of Apache."

Anyways, it amuses me. By the way I also think that this is why so many Geeks and Nerds like things like Lost, and D&D, and so forth. Vague, implicational, metaphorical, symbolic entertainments return to them in language and form what they have lost from or purged from their own language and everyday, work-a-day "idea set." In other words, in other worlds they get to be metaphorical and psychological (as the Greeks meant the term, not as moderns do) and spiritual and symbolic again. I mean, other than just mathematically symbolic.
 
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But, you ignored the second part of that. The refusal to clarify your points on the basis that any clarification will also automatically be misunderstood. I might well have claimed to have been misunderstood. Sure. But, I don't think anyone would claim that I'm not stubborn enough to keep trying to make myself understood.

Misunderstanding is fine. Asking for clarification is fine. Refusing to clarify once you've been asked to do so on the basis that the asker will misconstrue every point is not fine.

And my favorite spin on this from days of yore is:

Refusal to read or digest clarifications after they have been offered and keep beating the same strawman. Also, not fine.
 


I'm not sure I totally understand what a fallacy is, but I'm offering something which might be a fallacy. I call it

The fallacy of non-transfer

"I hate Game X, so nothing in Game X can be used to enhance Game Y."

Like, if I liked Mindflayers in D&D, and decided to transfer them to WFRP, I could be met with "I don't like D&D, therefore Mindflayers have no place in WFRP".

Would that be a fallacy? Or is it just me rewriting one of the already posted ones?

:confused:

/M
 

"I hate Game X, so nothing in Game X can be used to enhance Game Y."

Like, if I liked Mindflayers in D&D, and decided to transfer them to WFRP, I could be met with "I don't like D&D, therefore Mindflayers have no place in WFRP".

Would that be a fallacy? Or is it just me rewriting one of the already posted ones?

I don't know if you're just rewriting an earlier post or not, but I agree with your sentiment. You do not automatically disregard the importance or viability of a thing just because you do not like a thing. Or put another way, emotional preconceptions are no way to approach the problem of whether a thing will actually work or not. Or whether it will work well or not.

Emotions may make great drives, but they make very poor steering mechanisms.
 

Emotions may make great drives, but they make very poor steering mechanisms.

Yes. It is important to note one of the great fallacies of discourse (not just about games, but discussion in general) - that positions are rational, rather than rationalized.

A great many decisions humans make seem to be* made based upon emotion and preconception, and the logical analysis for support is made after the fact. And, the sticky part is, since the emotional decision is not a conscious one, the speaker does not necessarily realize that is how their decision was made.


*seeming established by watching brain activity during decision processes - I don't have the paper references handy, I'm afraid.
 

No, but it's not my job -- in real-life or on the Internet -- to provide citations for people who are too lazy to look them up themselves.

I see.

Sorry if I hit a bad chord on this with you, which brought out some defensiveness on your part. It was not my intention.

I'll just assume that your belief in reading being correlated to intelligence, was an off the cuff remark related to some past experiences or stuff which was read previously or "folklore".

Compared with "people in general," which includes people who do not read, people who read for pleasure are significantly more intelligent.

Then why didn't you ask that and save some time? You need to get back to RPGing!

Google was largely ineffective, no matter which keywords I used at first.

Yesterday I asked a former colleague whom has some familiarity with these issues, about where to start looking in particular. I was directed to several academic authors, for which google brought up some articles of interest.

One is a review of some research studies done on examining reading and how it relates to various measures of intelligence. It is consistent with the folklore of a correlation between reading and intelligence.

http://www.csun.edu/~krowlands/Content/Academic_Resources/Reading/Useful%20Articles/Cunningham-What%20Reading%20Does%20for%20the%20Mind.pdf

It even examined briefly on television and how it relates to some measures of intelligence.
 
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