False dichotomies and other fallacies RPGers use


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Well, you can, and obviously will, believe what you wish.

So long as you don't expect me to follow you down the rabbit hole, I'm fine with that.

I don't really care what you doe on the boards... (that's like Umbran and PCat's job...)

I only make suggestions that I think would lead to better conversations about a subject I enjoy, and less looping debates that don't really have any meaningful outcome.

The only exception I make is if you say Bullywugs suck- cuz that's not plausible, because Bullywugs are awesome. (The reality would instead be that you suck.)
 


1. In my experience, some players like to play human characters, and some do not.

2. I have never seen a player play a human character.

3. IME, good prepwork leads to good GMing, although I have known GMs who do run amazing games without doing any prep.

4. I run amazing games without doing any prep.

5. In my experience, and IMHO, fudging is beneficial to the game.

All of these statements are plausible. I find #2 a bit unlikely due to the fact that human characters are so popular, but, it's still plausible. Same with 4 and 5. I have some difficultly believing that someone could run amazing games without any prep simply because of my personal experience. Similarly, I have experienced games where fudging can work so, I can believe that one perhaps a bit easier.

But in no case should I state flatly, "No, you're wrong." because I have no real basis for saying so. I could question how 4 was achieved - what is that person doing differently from me to achieve his results. And, based on the answers he provides, I might decide that I don't believe him - either his definition of "prep" simply differs from mine (probably the most likely reason) or he has some ability which I lack which leads to a new decision about the plausibility of this ability (ex. poster claims to have perfect recall of every monster manual and has no need to reference any book. After being questioned about it, it turns out his recall is not perfect. Thus, I am going to strongly disbelieve his claim.)

1. I claim that, when playing D&D with you as the DM, I rolled a natural "20" on every die roll I make. However, I do not wish you to look at the die; you should simply take my word for it. It is my experience, in the game, that I am rolling these "20"s, and I expect you to believe it is so because I say that is my experience.

This fails the plausibility test because, after about five rolls, the odds of you rolling a twenty each and every time is so astronomical that it is no longer believable to any sort of objective observer. Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

2. You DM, sequentially, for several hundred persons over a wide geographic area. In many of these cases, players stated a preference for foo, but when you introduced foo to the game, in exactly the manner they stated a preference for, in each and every case, the game ended with everyone unhappy specifically because of the foo. Each of these players expresses disgust with the effects of foo on the game, and leaves, never to return. Now, another group of players arrives, and they also express a preference for foo. Do you give them the same credence you gave the hundreds of previous players, or have you learned from your experiences? If you accept that they are telling you the truth, how does that relate to your previous experience? If they also leave in disgust, what about the next group of players who say they love foo? What about the next? The next? At what point do you stop assuming that the next group of "foo loving" players will know what they are talking about?

I make my arguement that in my experience, Foo doesn't work. Because I've tried foo and it never works for me I suggest that we don't do foo. Perhaps a different DM with different styles can make Foo work, but, I accept my own limitations and I'm upfront about it. It doesn't matter if Foo is fudging or a comedy game. I've never been able to run what I consider a successful comedy game, despite trying a number of times. Does that mean a comedy game is impossible to run?

You're learning the wrong lesson from your experience if, in your experience foo doesn't work, you claim that it cannot work ever for anyone.

3. A poster gets into a long and complicated discussion on EN World, claiming repeatedly that he believes fudging is a bad idea that damages the game in nearly every case. Now he asks you if his statement of "In my experience, and IMHO, fudging is beneficial to the game" should be given the same credence as his statement of "In my experience, some players like to play human characters, and some do not." Do you conclude that these statements have equal claim to veracity? Or do you maybe....just maybe....learn from prior experience?

In this case, no. They are not equal. "Some people like to play human characters" is very plausible and easily verifiable. "Some people like fudging" is a bit harder to verify and probably less plausible. There are more factors in play here with fudging than with character race preferences.

However, at no point should our putative poster decide that it is impossible for fudging to be beneficial, since there is fairly ample evidence from a number of sources, including official game rules ranging back for thirty years and included in EVERY edition of the game. Essentially, our putative poster is deciding that because of his or her own inability to make something work, no one can make it work.

Let me spin it around RC.

I could make the following claim:

- Sandbox games cannot work. I've never seen a successful sandbox game in play as either a DM or a player. They ultimately become aimless, pointless, meaningless jumbles of conflicting goals and will always die, not with a bang, but with a whimper as players and DM lose interest.

Does that mean that I'm right? After all, this is my experience. I've never seen a successful sandbox game based on how you describe a sandbox. Should I learn from my experience and refuse to accept anyone's claims that a sandbox is different?
 

Just another thought to add to the wall of text. Sorry about that.

Let's move away from the elephant in the room for a second and look at another example. In 3e, a number of people complained that the CR/EL system didn't work. It was totally borked and virtually unusable.

Now, my experience was very different. I found that the CR/EL system, while hardly perfect, worked largely as advertised. I could use it rather nicely to judge the outcome of a given encounter.

So, should I conclude that all those people's experiences were invalid? That they just didn't know what they were talking about? Sure, I could have done that. But, instead, I engaged the critics and started looking behind the complaints. What were they doing differently than I was and a couple of commonalities leapt out very quickly:

  • Groups with more than 4 players
  • Very high (35+) point buy value characters

While this was hardly universal, it was very, very common. So, it wasn't that their experience was invalid, it's that their game differed from mine in pretty significant ways (I almost always have only 4 players, and we played 27 point buy). Looking at the guidelines for CR/EL, it became pretty obvious why these people were having different experiences.

But, there's the difference. I could have simply written off their experiences. They are having trouble with something that I don't, so, they're just wrong. But, instead, step beyond the primary issue and look into the background. What's different about their situation that gives rise to different experiences. I've found that this explains almost every difference in play that we talk about on these boards.

It's rarely the mechanics that cause the issues. It's almost always external elements - grindy fights are caused by slow players+particular encounter design. DM's in 3e used very large numbers of creatures in encounters because they almost always used classed humanoids which work fairly well. People have these long, complex sandbox games because they have stable groups of players who have gamed together for years. On and on and on.

Discounting a differing experience based on my own personal experience rarely yields anything productive.
 

If one should sometimes say "okay" to "my experience is foo" for the sake of conversation, one should equally say "okay" to "my experience is that what you just said is implausible".

If there is a difference, please enlighten us. :lol:

The difference is very simple - one cannot experience plausibility. Plausibility is a derived quantity, not an experience in and of itself. So, the correct pair of statements would be, "My experience is foo" and "My experience leads me to think what you just said is implausible".

Question a person's report of their experience, and you question their truthfulness or personal observations. Question a person's estimation of plausibility, and you are questioning their opinion.

Socially speaking (and all discussions are social events), these are by no means the same. People's opinions fail to match all the time - questioning one's estimation of plausibility isn't much different from questioning their impression of a particular movie. But if you want to appear arrogant, and to seem like you're calling others liars, by all means, publicly question the plausibility of their personal experiences when you weren't also present for them.


Your objections fail to answer the question.

The point about Vulcan was not made in response to a particular question.
 

However, at no point should our putative poster decide that it is impossible for fudging to be beneficial, since there is fairly ample evidence from a number of sources, including official game rules ranging back for thirty years and included in EVERY edition of the game. Essentially, our putative poster is deciding that because of his or her own inability to make something work, no one can make it work.

Let me spin it around RC.

I could make the following claim:

- Sandbox games cannot work. I've never seen a successful sandbox game in play as either a DM or a player. They ultimately become aimless, pointless, meaningless jumbles of conflicting goals and will always die, not with a bang, but with a whimper as players and DM lose interest.

Does that mean that I'm right? After all, this is my experience. I've never seen a successful sandbox game based on how you describe a sandbox. Should I learn from my experience and refuse to accept anyone's claims that a sandbox is different?

I've said similar things before so I'll add it again, I think a lot of the heat and hostility in debates on this board stem right from this issue here. People too often are unable to accept what people say at face value. It may be that they're really enamored with their own experiences, they think their experiences are universal, confirmation bias convinces them to count posted experiences similar to their as evidence while discounting contrary ones, or any number of other reasons.

But it naturally gets people's backs up because it basically says "You don't know what you're talking about. I know your experiences better than you." There are times in which that may actually be true because there are people with real delusions or who are really bad at understanding what their experiences mean, but that doesn't defuse the simmering resentment or anger.

If someone does believe, honestly believe, that their experiences are so strong that other people's experiences may be discounted or are wrong, you have to ask what purpose does it serve to say that? Is it being used to constructively further the topic of the thread? Is it being used to deflate another poster? What happens to the atmosphere of the thread if it is said? Are the consequences of saying it worth it? Are you compelled to say it because "someone on the internet is wrong"? Or is it better to describe your experiences without giving it in the form of a rebuttal?

It has been my experience that people play RPGs in a whole lot of different ways, some with widely spread commonalities and some highly idiosyncratic. There are some statements that I would consider highly improbable, even implausible, but very few of them actually deal with elements of playing style and campaign structure. There's far too much range and subtle variation of experience and preference for me to discount a lot there. Saying, however, that snorting coke off a hooker's hind quarters always makes the next die roll come out a natural 20, and I'm going to be a bit more skeptical. For one thing, the latter can be objectively verified (or disproved) by an outside observer. Objectively observing someone else's subjective experiences... not so easy, so I make more room for plausibility.
 

In practice, some people's minds are already made up. Almost nothing in the world will change their minds. For such individuals, they dig in their heels deeper and deeper whenever anybody attempts to challenge their belief systems (irrespective of how delusional or rational their beliefs are).
 


All of these statements are plausible. I find #2 a bit unlikely due to the fact that human characters are so popular, but, it's still plausible.

Explain how you derive "the fact that human characters are so popular".

I have some difficultly believing that someone could run amazing games without any prep simply because of my personal experience. Similarly, I have experienced games where fudging can work so, I can believe that one perhaps a bit easier.

So, you use your experience as a gauge to determine how likely you think something is? Perhaps you mean something other than "likely to be true" by "plausible"?

This site (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/plausible) gives me three possible meanings:

1. Seemingly or apparently valid, likely, or acceptable; credible: a plausible excuse.

2. Giving a deceptive impression of truth or reliability.

3. Disingenuously smooth; fast-talking: "Ambitious, unscrupulous, energetic, ... and plausible,a political gladiator, ready for a 'set-to' in any crowd" (Frederick Douglass).​

If you mean that any statement may give a deceptive impression of truth, or be disingenuously smooth, I will accept that you are right. If you mean "valid" specifically in the sense that "Boron has a valid right to express his views, regardless of how rational or irrational they may be", then I will agree. If you mean likely or credible, then I am afraid critical thinking applies.

But in no case should I state flatly, "No, you're wrong."

AFAICT, that is the biggest Strawman in the room.

AFAICT, no one is advocating saying "No, you're wrong." What is, AFAICT, going on is equating "I don't find that plausible" with "No, you're wrong" as a means to "prove" that the position one speaker doesn't find plausible must be accepted without any critical thinking applied.

Indeed, at least one poster has gone so far as to claim that rationality does not (or should not) apply in discussions of this nature.

(I cannot even begin to tell you how that affects my perception of the plausibility of their other statements.)



RC
 
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