Fan Site Policy: When is it coming?

[Lizard]

Again - here is this idea that WotC's publications are loaded with trademarks. Where do people get this idea from? Trademarks do not spontaneously erupt from nowhere - they require active efforts from their prospective owners in order to form. Also, how could a non-commercial website ever violate a trademark? Trademark violation require that:

• a trademark exist;
• it's used (without permission) as a trademark, and
• that the use is in commerce (that is on or in relation to the sale of goods and services), and
• the usage confuses consumers as to the source of the goods or services.

How would a fan-site qualify for trademark infringement under these circumstances? A fan-site would need to sell stuff - and then of course it wouldn't be a fan-site any more - in order to get within the scope of trademark legislation.

You are forgetting the concept of "Trademark dilution", which means anything you do which lowers the value of a trademark -- even if you make no money from doing so -- is a violation of the law. A fan-site called "Hot sluts Of Faerun" would be quickly sued for trademark violation, even if it used no copyrighted text and was non-commercial in nature. Likewise, any "fan" conversion of, say, Dark Sun could arguably reduce the market for a later
commercial product -- C&Ds would be flying fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_dilution

Please note that under current case law, no ACTUAL dilution is needed; only the *liklihood* of dilution.

Just wanted to add that the idea that "As long as you don't charge, you're safe" is one of the most pernicious memes to fly around the net. Trust me -- I could not put up a web comic called "The Adventures Of Superman", even if I charged nothing and used no copyrighted art or text. Commercial activity means you're more likely to be sued for cash damages, but the lack of it is not an invulnerable shield against C&D notices.

 

[pbrink]

The problem with fan sites would be exclusively related to copyright and would center around images, if you ask me.

Indeed. The issue will turn on when something is a derivative work. Under which circumstances is for example a fan created image of an Aboleth a derivative work? That's not so easy to answer. It gets less tricky when you move outside the U.S. Artistic representations of literary characters are not treated as derivative works in many jurisdictions, the reason being that such an image would be separate (independent) expression of the idea that has been expressed in text. Lots of room for conflicts here...

 

[pbrink]

You are forgetting the concept of "Trademark dilution", which means anything you do which lowers the value of a trademark -- even if you make no money from doing so -- is a violation of the law. A fan-site called "Hot sluts Of Faerun" would be quickly sued for trademark violation, even if it used no copyrighted text and was non-commercial in nature. Likewise, any "fan" conversion of, say, Dark Sun could arguably reduce the market for a later
commercial product -- C&Ds would be flying fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_dilution

Please note that under current case law, no ACTUAL dilution is needed; only the *liklihood* of dilution.

You forget that non-commercial usage is explicitly excluded as a dilutive action. Only commercial usage can dilute a trademark, see U.S. Trademark Act § 1125 3 C.

 

[lrsach01]

You forget that non-commercial usage is explicitly excluded as a dilutive action. Only commercial usage can dilute a trademark, see U.S. Trademark Act § 1125 3 C.

Their are few times I wish I had some law back ground....but this is one. Thanks for this info and especially the link!

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I'm most interested in the fate of "official" fansites. WotC has for a while now recognized one official fan site for each of the retired settings (with the exception of Greyhawk, I guess because Living Greyhawk still qualified as ongoing support, even though LG itself was entirely fan authored after the setting book).

From my long ago involvement with Athas.org, I recall the official fansite policy was that athas.org had WotC approval to create new material for Dark Sun, including release free rules conversions. Rules conversions were required to be written in athas.org's own words and could not borrow text from previous published material, but the entire setting's characters and unique monsters and cities were fair game for athas.org to write about and expand. If athas.org did make new material, then WotC and athas.org authors would be joint owners of all new material.

Another clause I recall was that official fansites were required to not have discussion forums and to direct discussions to the WotC forums. Maybe WotC dispensed with this limitation because I had seem over time other retired settings set up discussion forums of their own, but athas.org lived up to it until WotC forum masters blewup the retired settings forums with some Potemkin village model of aesthetics.

I doubt WotC would give such wide open use to all fansites in the future. But I hope official fansites are kept around to allow someone to continue publishing for the retired settings.

 

[Yair]

I doubt WotC would give such wide open use to all fansites in the future. But I hope official fansites are kept around to allow someone to continue publishing for the retired settings.

I have, some long time ago, referred some WotC guy (I think Rouse, but I'm not sure) to the issue of official fansites and their agreements with WotC. It was about Birghright, not Athas, but I was surprised to know thay WotC seemed to have no institutional memory of these agreements whatsoever. I started the discussion in the hope that WotC would maintain these or similar agreements as pertains to 4e; I ended up doubting they will. I hope that WotC will continue to support the old settings and allow the official fansites the great leeway that they do; but I somehow doubt it.

I'm also interested in fan-site policy in general, for my own (and others') use. The sooner the happier I'll be...

 

[Varianor Abroad]

The lady is reluctant to post anything because everyone will shred its content, grouse unendlingly when the deadline isn't met, and then go screaming that "WOTC sucks! They don't listen" when her hands are tied.

 

[lrsach01]

The lady is reluctant to post anything because everyone will shred its content, grouse unendlingly when the deadline isn't met, and then go screaming that "WOTC sucks! They don't listen" when her hands are tied.

On the other hand, saying "We don't have a time frame on that right now. We have other things going on which are more important" is a lot more polite than saying "I'm disinclined to provide a firm ETA." I'm sure fan sites will be willing to wait on producing material until WotC gets around to codifying their Fan Rules. Sure they would...won't they? *cough*Kenzer*Cough*

 

[CapnZapp]

To return from the wild off-topic discussions...

I am curious why, given that 4e has been in development for 3+ years, and copyright law hasn't changed meaningfully in that time, this sort of thing wasn't whipped out and gathering dust long before the actual game development was past the first alpha draft of the rules.

My guesses:
1) Because it isn't in Wizards best interest to have this done and served at launch - this holds off any deluge of small-time efforts in time for itself and its partners (Kenzer?) to dig some gold in private first. Possibly Wizards was burned by things like the first GR Freeport adventure that stole some of Wizards 3E launch thunder way back.
2) Because having any 3PP support at all might have been a recent development within Wizards. Considering the haste and confusion with which the GSL is born, I wouldn't be surprised if six months ago Wizards were thinking of going the completely closed route with no 3PP support at all (a.k.a. "the dark age of T$R")
3) Because Scott and Linae are only two people, and it can be difficult at times to get hold of the legal resources they require. Hence the work with the FAQ needs to be on slow cooking.

Pick your favorite(s)...

 

[tomBitonti]

My own take is that because the US legal system is essentially adversarial, there is no motive for Hasbro/WotC to provide any guidelines at all. The motive for Hasbro/WotC will be to claim all rights to themselves, and to force others to fight for any rights at all.