Fantasy becoming too fantastic...?

[Jürgen Hubert]

I have nothing against very fantastic elements in settings, even against extremely fantastic elements.

However, there should be a point to them, and they must make sense within the context of the setting.

I mean, if you bring in (for example) a Young Half-Fiendish Silver Dragon as a random encounter, it's not a "fantastic element", it's just another freakish critter the PCs kill on their way to the next level. But if you work in some backstory - if you drop hints on just how such a being came into existence - and if you carefully stage the encounter to heighten the tension and make the PCs both intrigued and unsure of what is going on...

... then you can make it as fantastic as it ought to be.

But you have to work for it.



To sum it up, I can deal with pretty much any level of the fantastic in fantasy settings. But the creator of the setting has to work hard to make them fit in thematically - or otherwise they will just seem random.

 

[Psion]

I mean, if you bring in (for example) a Young Half-Fiendish Silver Dragon as a random encounter, it's not a "fantastic element", it's just another freakish critter the PCs kill on their way to the next level.

Like a beholder?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

That's a bit of a tangent; none of these were required for the knightly game to which I alluded. Only ranger would I want to add to the list for LotR, and their spellcasting would be fairly trivial to house rule out.

Plus, there are examples of such classes out there that don't use spells - the Borderer from the Conan RPG is essentially a ranger without spells, and without looking at the book, I think the ranger in the Black Company setting book doesn't have spells. Plus, there are knightly classes/prestige classes available that are not spellcasters - the knight class from Relics & Rituals: Excalibur, the cavalier PrC from Complete Warrior (as well as the Knight Protector and the Purple Dragon knight - at least, I think they don't have spells. Correct me if I'm wrong.).

That said (entertaining the tangent reminding you that it's a tangent), D&D uses spellcasting to represent general miraculous abilities not just more blatant incantations. That being the case, your going to be hard pressed to convince me that there is no mythological precedent for the sorts of things represented by those spell lists, such as calm animals.

That's an excellent point. Many of those "spells" really represent what could be seen as class abilities. In that respect, it makes the D&D game even more customizable than it already is.

 

[Hussar]

I have to admit, I have slapped templates on critters from time to time just to beef them up. The party got the shock of its life (and near death) when those pair of manticores turned out to have the Venomous template from Creature Collection 2. Nothing like 6 poisoned tail spikes to really wake up the party.

Afterwards, I described the corpses as all manky and disease ridden. They were totally freaked. They kept waiting for the other shoe to drop and the diseases to set in.

Was it set up beforehand? Nope. I just added the template to buff the critters. But, it worked nicely.

 

[Psion]

I have to admit, I have slapped templates on critters from time to time just to beef them up.

I'm going to fork this into a potentially interesting thread in the hopes that this one rots.

See you there...

 

[francisca]

That's a bit of a tangent; none of these were required for the knightly game to which I alluded. Only ranger would I want to add to the list for LotR, and their spellcasting would be fairly trivial to house rule out.

In my 1e game, I put together a class called "Strider". I tossed out the spells, focused the tracking on particular terrains, gave him a level-based "Medicinal Point" mechanic (also based on terrain) with which the character could concoct poultaces and anti-venoms, and finally took some of the druid spells and made them level-based spell-like abilities. It's played out very well.

Seems it should be even easier to do with 3e and it's vaunted balance and flexibility, eh?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Why? As a player, why would you ever know how the creature was made? Is the DM telling you this? If so, why? It strikes me as more a matter of a DM showing too much behind the curtain. All the players should know is what they experience or dig up in-game. If you're a DM, sorry, but suspension of disbelief is really not your gig. You do all the world creation, you imbue the setting with mystery. Those templates and classes are there to make the creation of "Halaster's death slime" easier.

Actually, I was thinking of the perspective of a reader instead of either dm or player. When I see halfthisandthatillithidlichdragon, I yawn and put the module back on the shelf. I loved the dung monster from rappan athuk, but you can have your half drago ooze thingy all to yourself. It may just be semantics, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Actually, I was thinking of the perspective of a reader instead of either dm or player. When I see halfthisandthatillithidlichdragon, I yawn and put the module back on the shelf. I loved the dung monster from rappan athuk, but you can have your half drago ooze thingy all to yourself. It may just be semantics, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

Modules aren't written for their literary value, but to provide the DM resources to run an adventure. But I give you credit for admitting it's a semantics problem, even though I don't really understand that position when it comes to modules.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Seems it should be even easier to do with 3e and it's vaunted balance and flexibility, eh?

Actually, yes it would be pretty easy to do in 3e. Stuff like this is explicitly talked about in both the DMG and Unearthed Arcana. There is a neat "undead hunter" ranger variant in the DMG.

By the way, if you named the Strider after the Lord of the Rings character, I remember a dispute over whether his use of athelas to help soothe Frodo's shoulder was magic use or not. I maintain it was, with athelas being the component in a cure spell (maybe it even boosted the efficacy of it). He was chanting over the water and the herb in what I felt was a spellcastery way...but others saw it differently.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

or it's "reasonable" in a fantasy ecology (purple worms, owlbears). The overly weird stuff reminds me too much that it's just some guy's latest product.

Yes, a half dragon half elf is "too wierd", but an owlbear is a perfectly natural creature....

Most of the monsters gygax created are rediculous, they only get a free pass because they're old. If the rust monster, displacer beast or beholder was introduced for the first time now, the same grognards that love them would be pitching a hissy fit.

I LOATHE midieval european fantasy.