Fantasy becoming too fantastic...?

[Einan]

See, that's the thing. A half-vampire gelatinous cube ninja of legend is patently absurd. An unkillable blob of midnight slime that haunts the crevices of an ancient inn, that leaves slime-covered and blood-drained carcasses behind it as it slinks back into the shadows, is just plain scary.

If you're trying for style without player metagaming, change physical appearance and never label anything. As the Shaman and other folks illustrated, everything can be more frightening when you don't know what the heck you're facing.

Thank you. I think I just had my epiphany moment for the day. I don't think I've ever quite thought of the paradigm of DMing in those particular terms.

Einan

 

[Thaniel]

In my opinion, there's no such thing as "too fantastic" fantasy.

*snip*

Good example: Dragonmarks. In Eberron, you have races like Kalashtar, Changelings, Warforged. Why on earth would someone want that tried-and-stale half-elf? Because that half-elf has a network of support behind him in the form of his own people, AND because he could have a special mark that all those fru-fru warforged and shifters can have, one that makes him an ACTUAL part of HISTORY. Find the twist, and implement it.

I've often seen people QFT, but I'd never done it.
Here's one with QFTing.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Y'know, I'm just wondering if I'm alone here, but with current trends it just seems that there's not much room for ye olde classic fantasy. I guess what I mean is that with the barrage of splat books going down the road of "who wants orcs and goblins when you could have dire-fiendish-half-dragon-githyanki" does anyone else kinda long for the simple stuff? You know, the merry band of heroes out to rescue the damsel in distress, maybe some goblins, a dragon perhaps, an evil wizard, and wits necessary--not nuke like magic items?

So, make a campaign like that. I did. River trolls ala Grendel, kobolds, a dragon-haunted mountain, displaced dwarves, woodsey gnomes, a kindly wizard lord, a sniveling wizard villain, etc.

 

[JohnSnow]

Well, for what it's worth, I think that Core Rules D&D has made too much of the "in-game fun" completely dependent on using magic.

Mike Mearls addressed this when he wrote Iron Heroes (Thanks Mike!). And while I can use that system, I don't see why I should be denied the "fun" of D&D if I don't want to play a "ubiquitous magic" game. I mean, I think magic is cool too, but why should most of my character's "cool" abilities be reliant on some form of magic. Shouldn't I be able to choose to just be "good" at something rather than having extreme cosmic power?(TM)

I think that's the level at which fantasy has become too fantastic in the game. High magic, over-the-top fantasy is inherent to D&D, and it's become the dominant (nay, almost exclusive) form of "fun" the game has.

More generally, the Fantasy genre at the moment does seem to be largely focuse on a "Top This" arms race for weirdness.

 

[painandgreed]

I like my tools and my dire half dragon elves. However, I do take care to make such things very rare and hardly ever use them, so that when I do use them they do not seem so mundane.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Speaking as someone chronicalling the birth of a world, I'd have to say:

There's a room for templates.

For example: The God-King is a Zero Level Diety. His family and the nobility are all either planetouched, or half-celestials.

There's a bounty on a Winter-Wolf with disgusting, vestigal wings that leads a pack of Wargs. It's a half-fiend.

It's not whether or not you use templates, it's HOW you use them.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It's not whether or not you use templates, it's HOW you use them.

Absolutely. (Well, not the Half-Fey template, that's just too silly to use.)

As has been said, if the players aren't told "oh, that's a half-X Y," it's just a monster. They're useful tools for building monsters. It's no coincidence that the best-regarded D20 books include the Book of Templates and the Advanced Bestiary: A good template (or a book of them) is an invaluable tool.

I scared the crap out of my players with something as simple as a giant owl with the shadow creature template from the Manual of the Planes on it. That's it. It wasn't even a long fight. But BOY, did they want to know what the heck that thing was. (They never even ran into the shadow phase spider that jumps to and from the Plane of Shadow instead of the Ethereal Plane.)

A good template can jump-start your creativity (we all run dry once in a while) and if it's a good template, give you good mechanical support for those ideas.

They become mundane when they're a standard player option. When the day comes when a player angrily demands to know why they CAN'T be a spellcarved half-vampire half-dragon, yeah, it's gone too far.

But keep them on your side of the screen and resist the temptation to show them how the magic trick worked, and they're a great addition to the game.

 

[Hussar]

I think that's the level at which fantasy has become too fantastic in the game. High magic, over-the-top fantasy is inherent to D&D, and it's become the dominant (nay, almost exclusive) form of "fun" the game has.

This sort of revisionist history really irks me. Quasqueton is currently posting his module examinations today. Take a look at the MASS of magic the players get from one series of modules. Sixth level parties with Frost Brands (+6 sword anyone), toting around several hundred thousand gp. But it's suddenly now that high magic is the rule of the day?

I have no idea what game you played, but it sure didn't look much like the game I played. Every low magic game I played or ran in 1e or 2e fell to pieces at around 8th level because the casters just totally dominated.

What blows my mind is that 3e parties of an equal level are so much poorer than their 1e counterparts in both magic and money. Yet, the cry of "Over the top" and "You MUST FOLLOW THE WEALTH GUIDELINES OR THE SKY WILL FALL" gets run up the flagpole all the time.

Little hint, you can vary those wealth guidelines pretty broadly and nothing happens. The myth of balance is just that. Game balance is a good idea, but, it's also not so precarious as people would like to believe.

 

[JohnSnow]

Anyone who actually read my post will notice that I wasn't addressing balance questions, or even, quite, that the game has "shifted."

The simple fact is that D&D has ALWAYS favored casters over other classes. Third Edition (and 3.5) has actually been an improvement in this regard, giving the non-caster classes a little more "fun" to have. However, they've done that mostly by giving them more magic.

I'm talking about the fact that the "game elements" of D&D are almost all about managing magical resources. That doesn't HAVE to be the case. It always has been, but that's no reason, in and of itself, for why that should continue. Fighter characters should have more rules-based options in combat than just "I whack him."

My two cents.

 

[Numion]

Fighter characters should have more rules-based options in combat than just "I whack him."

I'd say 3E has improved this in a huge way. In previous editions our groups combats were mostly "Hit - Miss - Hit - Hit" our PCs standing around like retards. That was the "I whack him" you were talking about.

With 3E the combats are much more exciting, because of the maneuvers and tactical movement. That in itself requires no magic.

And then of course there are the feats. A lot of more non-magical options for fighters. Besides, most of the magic fighters want for themselves are just of the type that make them better at what they're already doing. At least in my games, YMMV and all that. (Maybe with the exception of flight equipment at higher levels).