Farewell to thee D&D

[Vigilance]

Is it Tuesday again already?

 

[Jack Colby]

D&D has been a trollop for a long time now. How did you not notice?

 

[S'mon]

I too wasn't too impressed by the look of 4e, so I went back to 3.5e but added in the things I learned from running C&C. Basically the players use the PHB classes and I use Mentzer Red Box classes & monsters, appropriately CR'd. Works great for me. I expect I will play 4e eventually and I don't particularly begrudge the £40 I spent on the 4e books; I knew there was a risk I wouldn't like the game.

 

[vagabundo]

All the best.

Although a bit of advice: dont shrug off your old group, if you have the time you should continue to play in their 4e game.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't disagree with your assertion about powers. I very much think they were written with the idea you stated in mind.

But I hope you don't mind me disagreeing that the drama rather loses it impact when people are blowing off their encounter powers not because it would be a dramatic point in the story, but rather because they can. That is what I experienced. Every single encounter, encounter powers are used whether or not they are needed.

That is just because every single encounter needs a dramatic moment!
Every fight scene in a movie will have a few dramatic moments - unless the movie is bad, of course.
Every combat encounter ain an RPG should have a few dramatic moments. And that's what Encounters and Dailies will provide.

 

[Fenes]

I don't see the encounter powers, not even the daily powers, as that dramatic. Just not enough power.

Compared to martial attacks such as Swooping Dragon Strike, or similar moves, and spells like Meteor Swarm, their 4E "analogs" just seem weak. The paladin using spirited charge with a lance and smite evil, and doing a critical, that was dramatic (or when the blackguard charged the party's barbarian on a nightmare with smite good). The Barbarian's pouncing charge reducing one demon to a red stain on the floor. The blade dancer's Desert Wind technique reducing three attackers to ash.

Killing minions simply is not the same. In the back of my head, I always know that anything would have killed them as long as it did 1 dmg. Minions are great for showing off how powerful a party is, for those "cut through the guards" moments, but they do not really add as much drama for me as a good high-damage spell or move.

I guess I just don't handle combat that strictly, that detailed to be impressed by all those shifts and moves and such, but piddly damage. Give me impromptu intimidate checks, big nasty blows and spells, and let me handle combat by the seat of my pants.

 

[mrswing]

Hey Celtavian,

I have exactly the same emotional response to 4e as you, except in the Mearls podcast thread I described it as breaking up with a good friend who has changed his lifestyle in a way you can't agree with.

I totally understand your need to vent, and as I said in the other thread, no longer being part of the new developments of the game makes one sad, even though it's totally irrational because of the huge amount of material available and the fact that you can generate new material yourself ad infinitum. Frankly, it's an addiction, and being forced to go cold turkey is no fun at all.

 

[FireLance]

Killing minions simply is not the same. In the back of my head, I always know that anything would have killed them as long as it did 1 dmg. Minions are great for showing off how powerful a party is, for those "cut through the guards" moments, but they do not really add as much drama for me as a good high-damage spell or move.

Actually, for DMs that don't like the idea of basic attacks killing 1 hp minions and aren't too concerned about the additional bookkeeping, I wonder if the following house rule would work:

HP: A minion has hp equal to 1/4 Constitution score + 2 x (Level + 1); see also minion weakness

Minion Weakness
A minion that is hit by a power higher than its level is reduced to 0 hp instantly.​

This gives minions basic hit points equal to one quarter that of a standard monster, and requires the PCs to use higher-level powers to instantly kill them. It does shift the balance of minions slightly, but not game-breakingly so, I think.

 

[Fenes]

Actually, for DMs that don't like the idea of basic attacks killing 1 hp minions and aren't too concerned about the additional bookkeeping, I wonder if the following house rule would work:

HP: A minion has hp equal to 1/4 Constitution score + 2 x (Level + 1); see also minion weakness

Minion Weakness
A minion that is hit by a power higher than its level is reduced to 0 hp instantly.​

This gives minions basic hit points equal to one quarter that of a standard monster, and requires the PCs to use higher-level powers to instantly kill them. It does shift the balance of minions slightly, but not game-breakingly so, I think.

You miss my point - I dislike that the powers are so weak. I miss powers that are on par with the spells and techniques of 3E. I miss the "loads of dice" damage, the crits that take away half an enemie's hitpoint in one blow - at high level. You'd have to make a rule that allows massive damage on PCs and foes.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You miss my point - I dislike that the powers are so weak. I miss powers that are on par with the spells and techniques of 3E. I miss the "loads of dice" damage, the crits that take away half an enemie's hitpoint in one blow - at high level. You'd have to make a rule that allows massive damage on PCs and foes.

I was a little surprised that daily powers did not turn into that. I understand why it doesn't. It makes them too powerful, to important, and returns you back to all your "15 minute adventuring and save and sit" days woes they wanted to avoid with the new resource management system.

For tactical gameplay, "big guns" like that tend to break the game. Instead of outmaneuvering your foes and getting into advantageous situations, you just shoot your biggest gun and hope it hits.

But I get that people miss that.