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Farewell to thee D&D

It's handy to look at statblock of NPC brother to PC priestess and find out how he is doing during archeological expedition he is managing. His statblock tells me what I can expect of him and limits the results of his action to believable frame.

But you wrote the character sheet / statblock.

I understand the rules are a nice support structure but fundamentally it breaks down to:

1) DM comes up with a character concept
2) DM codifies the concept with the rules
3) DM uses said concept to achieve what he thinks is appropriate.


The arguement 4th ed makes is that step 2 isn't all that necessary. It's useful to make sure within the right power area but completely codifing the concept doesn't achieve anything.


As to an earlier poster saying the world revolves around the players - it doesn't. The RULES revolve around the players - the world revolves around the DMs imagination as it has always done.
 

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It is always important to define the "theme" and personality of the NPCs, and then translate them to rules representation that also fit the PCs.
Basically, in my game, you may opt to gain additional points to allocate if you do something of the following:
- provide background story for the character - it works best if its sketchy but tells about all important turning points of character career. For example, you have an exceptional Wisdom score - how did you develop it? How did it change the way you live? Did it come into play significantly - if so, when and how, if not, why?
- provide names, class levels, professions and attitudes of all family members
- promise to write diary (laconic and regular entries are best - I don't need hundreds of pages, I just want detailed record of character experiences for future usage)

Something similar happens to NPCs. Their initial descriptions are sketchy (class levels and some skills). Through interactions with PCs and game world and if they gain importance, they will gain more details. Otherwise, they rely on certain standards for less important NPCs (basically, base stats, total score of 2-3 key skills and some defining notes).

I think in many cases where you don't know what the outcome of an off-screen NPC interaction is, you can just flip a coin. If you think a certain thing is more likely, you can use dice. But do you need actual statistics?
Coin flip does not acknowledge circumstances, NPC defining traits and does not contain hints as to NPCs further decisions.

For your example of the archaeological expedition or the attempt to heal the weakening brother, wouldn't you need to set both the NPCs skill values and their DCs? Doesn't this mean you actually already decided the likely results beforehand?
Digression: he is not actually weakening. He is developing aggressive separate personality, whose driving goal is to destroy the vessel. Right now, the intruder is somewhat limited to seldom acts leading to grievious body harm since intruders perception of surroundings is lacking. In game terms, think about psychological version of side effects of Clone spell, where the perceived enemy is the host's personality and host's body.

I know skills and DCs (at least for the next bout of rolls). The results will allow me to decide on both future course of actions and future DCs. These are ongoing side plots of which development is done at certain time intervals.

So, no, I haven't decided anything yet. They may or may not succeed. We'll see about that later.

Of course, sometimes NPCs might just "accidentally" stumble into a situation where they need a skill you haven't thought of yet. But a fallible DM could _really_ have forgotten that skill (it happened to me even as a player sometimes), and it would have made sense for the NPC to have it, but he doesn't! Of course, if you didn't make this mistake, will it still turn out to give you the results that will benefit the story?
Who knows? There is a good chance it will benefit the story (that's why it is being developed).
The stats are at my fingertips. There is not much chance that I will forget something.

Of course, the latter thing is probably narrative thinking. From a simulation perspective, things don't have to go according to a "story". They just happen how they would happen in a fictional world.

My complaint about that approach is that it risks too much. The chance of ending up with a less interesting story-line is not outweighed with something beneficial for me as a player or as a DM.

Usually, the most developed stories are those which are happening in PC's vicinity. The others are usually decided with a simple, less detailed roll.

The risk is acceptable to me for the following reasons:
- I have several stories, so the probability of some of them ending up usable is very high,
- new stories are often spawned by PCs actions,
- even failed stories sometimes make it to players knowledge through discovery of diaries or via witness accounts,
- sometimes, at the end of a story arc, the stories which finished off stage or those which became immaterial and are considered closed, will be related by me in a form of series of epilogues.

For example, once upon a time I ran a few campaigns in KULT. This game relies on deception and lies, so chances of players learning actual data is slim. And so, at the end of each story, there was something I call "warm afterglow" moment, where everyone was sitting comfortably, and everyone was asking questions (not just me, many players had their own stories to tell, the secret backgrounds, the side trips with GM to another room).

Since then I have been using this method to enlighten players, thus making the world more believable and PCs more involved. An example of early such event in Scarred Lands campaign:
- a Dirty-Dozen hero, Alif, took an opportunity to sell a horse (property of city of Mithril), an expensive one at that, to not-entirely-honest merchant.
- the crime was discovered by stable hands, but it would be hard for PR to announce that one of the famous Mithril Heroes has succumbed to plain greed.
- during official award giving ceremony one of the gifts presented to our heroes, the one presented to Alif, was a very well preserved (mummified) hand of a human male.
- Alif, being rather freaked out by this gift, understood the hint and never stole from the city coffers later. He also never asked questions.
- The players, of course, wanted to know what actually happened. The horse sold by Alif was worth much more than the thief thought it to be - it was groomed to become a real paladin warhorse, its just that it's owner died. And, as means of elevating the status, it was presented to the Heroes of Mithril.

The outrage at selling one was considerable. However, for political reasons, it was to be kept quiet. So, the merchant had been visited by two paladins and cleric, told explicitly about his crime and informed about three possible options - years of sentence aboard a ship or at forges, gallows or yielding his right hand (and his head if he does not behave himself). In the end, merchant being the family man, have decided to yield his hand.

The players were suitably terrified at this harsh sentence, but at the same time, they were taught an important lesson about crime and punishment in the city rule by people who feel it is their divine right to rule (and who can find out guilty parties fast). They have been also informed, that the merchant received tax exempt for one year to alleviate the stress of hiring one more scribe to write.

The story took place in the background, the merchant made his rolls (during purchase of the horse and later, during interrogation) and so the side story ended.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Disclaimer: Paladins of Mithril in my campaign are good and nice guys. Just don't cross them since they are not very good at forgiving.
 

Celt:
I can't agree more with your dislikes for 4e. Not my cup of tea, won't try to house rule it, nothing. Got the 3 core books, and FRCS on 'loan'. Read all tediously. For me, you hit the nail on the head at about every point....

Except the farewell to D&D.

Speaking for myself, 3.5 is fine and dandy. I've tons of stuff for it. As I do for 1e, and 2e....The issues others find with 3.xe simply are not a problem for me, seems they aren't with you either.

Plenty of material to run a game for eons. If an eventual 5e is released, and does it for me, then I'll hop on board. Otherwise, I will game, it will be D&D, and it will be the system that 'does it' for me.

There is SO much stuff out there where you can game for years in one version of D&D. Make sure you obtain an extra copy of your screen, DMG, and a couple of copies of the PHB, even if you scan your own copy to PDF....

.. this way you have rulebooks for future players.

Then, start your own game, get your own players. This is the ruleset I'm using, you need buy NOTHING, and I deliver good game, are you in or out.

Just about any one regional splat book from any one campaign setting can provide literally years of campaign ideas, much lass a vast library as I have, so a middling sized library can still deliver D&D thru social security.


Ruemere:
Must keep sig fit.... ahem... page load error, must fix, wanna check in on SLCS......
 
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<quick off-topic threadjack>
Adlon, lots of people still miss Mortality Radio. Just to say thanks for all the good listening times.
</quick off-topic threadjack>
 


Hey Celtavian! I understand where your comments are coming from, and even though I don't agree with all your examples, I do share your overall opinion in the latest edition.

I really wish that the overall response to your opinion wasn't as vitriolic as it has been, but that's the type of site EN World is fast becoming, despite the efforts of some of the mods.

That's ... very sad. :eek:

It has little or nothing to do with the Mods. There's only so much they can do without throwing the Ban-Hammer around like Thor on PCP. It's us. Each and every one of us.

The following comments are not directed at Celtavian. If you see yourself in these words ... ask yourself why.

If you don't agree with someone, do you have to attack them to get your point across? Do you have to be rude, insulting, demeaning, nasty ... snarky? Even when the poster freely admits he's just expressing his own, personal opinion?

No one is changing anyone's opinions any more ... if they ever did. It's over now. Some like 3.X, some like 4E, and some truly odd-balls like both. There is no more point in acting like a self-important, self-indulgent child -- just get over it. And play whatever game or games you like.

It's beginning to look like this transition left more gamers behind than the previous ones. I think that's unfortunate -- feel perfectly free to disagree with me, but (as an exercise for the student) see if you can do it politely.

If you can't control your behavior, if you can't genuinely be polite to others even here on the Internet -- maybe you need to "get a life" before posting again. And grow up.
 

I feel the same way as the OP and I haven't even read the books or played the game. I bought the three books the first day they were out and I still haven't finished reading them.

I'm just not feeling it. The "style" has changed. It feels like a different game dressed up with just enough of the familiar to try to get me to ignore all the differences.

Add to that the fact that every single person I've talked to who has played 4E no longer likes it. Some liked it at first but eventually abandoned it. Others didn't like it at all.

I dunno, I just feel sad about 4E. I just have little to no desire to learn the system. I'd rather keep playing 3.5 and that's probably what I'll do.

D&D has a big problem on its hands.
 


Just a friendly comment: "please be polite" and "get a life and grow up" don´t actually have much in common. Neither does "self-important, self-indulgent child".
See, flames on internet messageboards are created because people are "disgusted by the other side" and think they have a right to "shoot back." You´ve exemplified that point perfectly.
 

There's an easy way to answer this question - by answering another question. Is it reasonable to expect that the designers could please everybody with one design? If not, it is difficult to argue that there is any one "the right choice". All choices are right in some ways, and wrong in some ways.

I've been resisting up until now, but I have to chime in here.
Is it reasonable to expect that the designers will aim to keep the game similar enough that the existing fans will stay on?
I speak as one who has seen the death of a game series due to the developers working to harness a new audience instead of starting with the intent of retaining their existing audience.

I agree with every single point that Celtavian has made throughout this thread, and commend him for keeping his cool despite the verbal sticks and stones thrown his way.

I take issue with the argument that 'this isn't the same game so get over it'. If it's labeled D&D it damned well should be the same game. I can walk into any edition from 0 to 3.5 or 3.p and expect to have a fair idea of what each character can do and how the system works. 4e has totally departed from that situation.
Fighters went from damage dealing nuts to meat-shields and moveable walls.
Wizards went from glass hammers to bizarre ... well recharging wands basically.
Clerics went from dedicated support personnel to secondary fighters.
Rogues went from sneaky opportunists to prime damage dealers.
Critical hits went from something worth cheering about to something I yawn over.

What on earth is going on here?

Like Celtavian I can see the point of minions. I can see the point of lots of rules in 4E, but that doesn't mean that those rules are fun for me (us). Two nights ago I spent an hour and a half fighting a small bunch of kobolds. We blew all our dailies and encounter powers on one battle... why? Not because we were in a terrible amount of danger of dying, but simply because they were so damn tough that we needed the extra damage to take them down. Where are my low hit point opponents?

To put this all another, simpler way. I want my 'sacred cows' back.
All this round by round balance between classes makes me feel like I'm playing Hero Quest rather than D&D. My experience of D&D has always shown that lack of weight in combat was made up for out of combat. That doesn't seem to exist in my (currently limited) experience of 4E. All this fairness and equality in the short term has taken away from the flavour that each class used to have. There's a lack of divergence in what each class can do.

As best as I can tell Celtavian started this thread as a way of contacting those who agree with him. The intent of this thread was most definitely not about arguing over which is the better system. Some people don't seem to be able to understand that.

Adlon said:
Except the farewell to D&D.

Speaking for myself, 3.5 is fine and dandy.
<snip>
Then, start your own game, get your own players.
Indeed. I agree with you... now if only I could actually find enough steady players near where I live. I've never had any success in finding other gamers around here via the internet. Mind you, after talking with half the players from my current game... I get the distinct feeling that I'm NOT the only one who has problems with 4E in my group. Just a pity (for me) that the current DM is so pro-4E.

Strangely as a DM myself, I find 4E even more problematic in terms of preparation than 3E. Virtually NONE of the example monsters in the MM are written in a form that would make me use them. This means every creature has to be customized, which is something I did not find in earlier editions. In 3E I only had to customize the special ones, not the mooks. Now we've got hundreds of example special ones... which may or may not be the appropriate level to work with their counterparts, and very few basic grunts that take hits and die in the traditional D&D manner.
 

I can walk into any edition from 0 to 3.5 or 3.p and expect to have a fair idea of what each character can do and how the system works.
I'm not trying to convince you to like 4e, or any edition/game for that matter, but the statement I quoted seems really... odd. OD&D, AD&D, and 3.x are completely different game systems that share some common terminology. The differences between 2e and 3e alone are significant. They play differently, and perhaps more importantly, the encourage very different types of play.
 
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