D&D 5E Favored Enemy needs a simple Damage +2

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Then someone kicks it and it dies because of it's AC 11 and 19 hp and you fall prone and waste your 2nd level spell.
The stupid wolf has better AC and can deal damage and trip as an action or help as a bonus action.

The beastmaster's pet is weak but it is way better that find steed's steed.

It's just a horse for a 2nd level spell.

Not really. Again, the steed is intelligent and acts independently. The stupid wolf literally does nothing unless you tell it to - it cant help as a bonus action. You have to trade out an attack to make it attack, help, etc. The horse is less accurate, but deals more damage since it gets to attack again if it knocks the target prone with trample. Also its prone DC is 15 vs the wolf's 11. The steed will also tend to have more HP for a decent while if your DM rolls, since you can keep cycling steeds until you get one near max, then continue summoning that particular one.

The linked thread also conveniently ignores two weapon fighting, colossus slayer, sharpshooter and great weapon master, and its math is off since he grants the wolf an extra +2 damage for some reason (its 2d4+2 at base, so 2d4+4 at 3rd level, not 2d4+6 like he assumes).

Lets not forget you threw away your colossus slayer and other actually good class features to have a slightly better dog, which anyone can plunk down 30gp for (and presumably also acts independently). The paladin gets the steed ON TOP of the other stuff. Find Steed is the icing on their cake. The wolf IS the beastmaster's cake. It shouldn't even be remotely close which is better, but it sadly is. The fact that its debatable shows the subclass needs work.

Also, again, the ranger is a jerk for continuing to bring poor trusting animals to get fireballed. If the steed gets "killed" it really DOES go to run and play with the other ponies on a farm upstate (mount olympus or whatever) until you throw another 2nd level spell to resummon.

 

[CapnZapp]

The problem with the animal companion isn't so much it's weak, but how it is unfun to play. Anyone trying to claim the Beastmaster subclass is "fine" is trolling, as far as I'm concerned.

On topic: I agree that whatever boost you give Rangers in general, give them exploration, scouting and survival boons, not combat boons.

Myself, I think the Ranger hunter is fine.

The Beastmaster however is simply not working as people want it to, including myself.

 

[Coredump]

Man, a Bard can emulate a Ranger archer and get better.

A Bard learn Conjure Volley, Tree Strider and Swift Quiver in level 10 (Level 17 Ranger Spells) and more slots to use.
This is broken for the Bard and humiliating for Ranger.

1) Conjure volley has nothing to do with being an archer, no more than Flame Strike. Its just an area effect spell with a cute twist.
2) All 3 of those are 5th level spells, the bard gets to cast two of them and.... wait until tomorrow I guess.
3) Bard has to wait till lvl 3 to get longbow
4) Has to wait until lvl 6 to get Extra attack
5) Has to wait until lvl 10 to get hunter's mark.
6) Ranger gets +2 to hit from Archery
7) Ranger gets +d8/turn from Collosus slayer, (and the +d6 per attack with Hunter's mark)
8) In case someone gets close, AoO against Ranger is at disad
9) Ranger can shoot every enemy in a 4x4 or 5x5 grid (depending on how you read the rule), *every* turn.

Yeah.... I can't see a Ranger being too worried about a Bard archer....

 

[CapnZapp]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?360982-In-Defense-of-the-Beastmaster

I read through the entire thread.

Any case for the Beastmaster is weak at best and wishful thinking at worst.

(For example: the poor HP and defenses of the beast is not a problem, the argument goes. Provided the DM goes out of his way not to hurt the beast. *rolls eyes*)

Most of the thread is actually the same complaints you see here. And they're not meaningfully addressed.

When you can't defend a class feature even when you're trying to be as naive or apologetic as possible, that's having the opposite effect on me: it all but confirms all our misgivings about that feature.

Again, the Beastmaster's main problem isn't any numerical inferiority. It's how restrictive and gamey and plain unfun it feels to play. That can't simply be explained away.

What the Beastmaster needs is this:

1) acknowledge that a free-willed, level-appropriate AC beast is and will be slightly overpowered

and then

2) make the subclass optional, explicitly requiring your DM's approval to play.

3) explicitly mention how the beast could disrupt play for some groups, with how having two characters in one can hog attention and demand more than your fair share of DM attention.

But make the beast work and act how people expect and want it to play!

It absolutely needs it's own action.

It probably needs better hp and defenses, but that could become problematic, so perhaps it flees or cowers at 0 hp instead of death. Any way you solve it, you absolutely cannot be expected to have your friend be killed in every other encounter.

But most of all the 4e abomination of taking its master's action needs to be killed or buried. Better to restrict it to home play and have a proper animal that in no way is worse(!) than any other means of getting allies.

 

[Coredump]

I'm playing with the Ranger for five months, am level 11.


I will explain my comparison with these 3 classes:

Fighting Styles (Fighter)
Land's Stride (Druid)
Summon Spells (Druid)
Nature Spells (Druid)
Vanish (limited Rogue's Cunning Action)
Feral Senses (like Rogue's Blindsenses)
Hunter's Evasion (Rogue)
Hunters Uncanny Dodge (Rogue)
Foes Slayer (like Precision Attack manouver - Fighter)
Hit Dice D10 (Fighter)

among others.

Yes, the Ranger is (in essence) a Fighter/Thief/Druid with a few abilities added in. That does not address anything about power level, usefulness, or anything really.

The Ranger can fight better than the Rogue or Druid, can sneak and evade better than the Fighter or Druid, and can cast spells better than the fighter or rogue.

Now, most of his *ranger* abilities are pretty bland.... but that doesn't mean the class is weak.

 

[Coredump]

1- Find Steed improves your speed.
2- It's a level 2 spell.
3- There is not a real animal.
4- If you die can be invoked again in the next turn (no need to wait 8 hours).
5- Do not sacrifice your archetype.
6- Depending on the DM you can invoke other mounts beyond horse (a friend invokes a Grifon with higher slots).

1) Yay, so does a 75gp riding horse. Or get an Elk animal companion, or giant lizard, heck, you could even get a Warhorse.
2) That does not make it 'better'
3) That does not make it 'better'
4) How many paladins do you know 'wasting' a prepared spell on Find Steed, "just in case" it dies....??
5) That makes no sense
6) So yes, if you DM makes up new rules... it changes things. Of course, the DM could also allow for different Companions.

lets keep going

7) the Steed has average HP, the Companion has Max, or more if the Ranger is high enough level
8) The Companion gets to add the Ranger proficiency to its attacks... and damage... and saving throws...and its skills... and it frickin' armor class.
9) Ranger can use Beast Sense on the companion.


Now, I can agree that the Companion or Beastmaster could use some improvements... but comparing it to Steed just doesn't wash.

 

[Coredump]

For a Bard ranged/spellcaster do not need high HP, AC, etc.
He can use Conjure Volley (for attack) or Tree Stride (to flee) 9x per day, Ranger only 2x.

Okay, what am I missing... how are you casting a 5th level spell 9 times a day...???

 

[miniaturehoarder]

Kinda sounds like folks read a lot into the Find Steed spell.

 

[Minigiant]

Not really. Again, the steed is intelligent and acts independently. The stupid wolf literally does nothing unless you tell it to - it cant help as a bonus action. You have to trade out an attack to make it attack, help, etc. The horse is less accurate, but deals more damage since it gets to attack again if it knocks the target prone with trample. Also its prone DC is 15 vs the wolf's 11. The steed will also tend to have more HP for a decent while if your DM rolls, since you can keep cycling steeds until you get one near max, then continue summoning that particular one.

The linked thread also conveniently ignores two weapon fighting, colossus slayer, sharpshooter and great weapon master, and its math is off since he grants the wolf an extra +2 damage for some reason (its 2d4+2 at base, so 2d4+4 at 3rd level, not 2d4+6 like he assumes).

Lets not forget you threw away your colossus slayer and other actually good class features to have a slightly better dog, which anyone can plunk down 30gp for (and presumably also acts independently). The paladin gets the steed ON TOP of the other stuff. Find Steed is the icing on their cake. The wolf IS the beastmaster's cake. It shouldn't even be remotely close which is better, but it sadly is. The fact that its debatable shows the subclass needs work.

Also, again, the ranger is a jerk for continuing to bring poor trusting animals to get fireballed. If the steed gets "killed" it really DOES go to run and play with the other ponies on a farm upstate (mount olympus or whatever) until you throw another 2nd level spell to resummon.

The problem with the animal companion isn't so much it's weak, but how it is unfun to play. Anyone trying to claim the Beastmaster subclass is "fine" is trolling, as far as I'm concerned.

On topic: I agree that whatever boost you give Rangers in general, give them exploration, scouting and survival boons, not combat boons.

Myself, I think the Ranger hunter is fine.

The Beastmaster however is simply not working as people want it to, including myself.

The issue is "What people want" vs "What works"

• You can't give the ranger a fully controllable bear with scaling stats who can tank a giant while the ranger slashes another giant.
• You can't have the ranger deal crazy damage to favored enemies.
• You can't give the druid, a wlidshaping full caster, an animal companion.
• You can't let a spellcaster PC be invisible, flying, and controlling illusionary self and shooting fireballs.

We tried that before. They didn't work.
Some things may need a tweak but some suggest tweaks forget the flaws of the past. You can do them at your tables but the RAW got it mostly right.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I've got this sneaking suspicion that 1) the vast majority of people in this thread have never played or probably even played with a Beastmaster; and 2) the subclass isn't nearly as terrible as people make out. That said, *I* don't have any personal experience with the subclass, so...

I do have one issue with the Beastmaster though. And it's kind of a big one: The class is TERRIBLE for verisimilitude. So I'm this animal trainer and I've got this half-tamed wild beast who presumably likes me to some extent. The thing...sits idly by while foes attack it? Lacks any sort of loyalty when the person who feeds it is threatened? Just kind of...runs away from everything? Attacks when I order it, but then the next round when I don't it just kind of...sits down and sleeps?