D&D 5E Favored Soul: Overpowered?

[jgsugden]

FS is not overpowered at all. The wider spell selection, when limited to only those spells listed as bonus spells for a domain, are not a major addition. They're limited to theme and tend to be redundant. The melee bent on the class with the extra attack allows them to be productive after they use up their spells, but they should have a lot of spells and should not be running out of them very often once they reach level 6.

The spell-less ranger is likewise less potent than the spelled ranger. Hunter's Mark, by itself, overpowers the benefits of the superiority dice.

 

[Dausuul]

From the first Unearthed Arcana article:

"You can think of the material presented in this series as similar to the first wave of the fifth edition playtest. These game mechanics are in draft form, usable in your campaign but not fully tempered by playtests and design iterations. They are highly volatile and might be unstable; if you use them, be ready to rule on any issues that come up. They’re written in pencil, not ink."

So, yeah, there may well be balance issues here. That said, nothing screams BROKEN at me. Yes, the favored soul gets a lot more versatility than, say, a dragon sorcerer. On the other hand, the dragon sorcerer has superior damage output. For a full caster, Extra Attack is not as good as adding your Cha bonus to elemental spell damage. I could imagine playing either one*.

[SIZE=-2]*Of course, there is still the issue that fire is ridiculously better than any other element for the dragon sorc. But that's a separate concern.[/SIZE]

 

[Celtavian]

When someone makes a claim of overpowered, I want to see why. I'm not seeing it. Imbalanced compared to the other weak options available to sorcerer and ranger? Maybe. Overpowered? Not at all. Sorcerer and ranger were the two weakest classes in the game. I hope these options make someone want to try either. They fall way behind most other classes unless you're a sorlock.

 

[famousringo]

I got Rodney to respond to this on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/wotc_rodney/with_replies



I really appreciate him answering me, but I disagree with just about everything.

1) True, it's a fixed and limited grouping, but the spell lists are incredibly powerful and gives you access to spells that sorcerers don't usually get. For example, Light domain gets Bless and Cure Wounds at 1st level, then Less Restoration and Spiritual Weapon at 3rd. These spells are better at what they do than any Sorcerer equivalent. Even if you pick Light Domain, which has a decent amount of overlap with sorcerer spells (burning hands, scorching ray), you're still picking up things like Faerie Fire, Flaming Sphere, again better than any Sorc equivalent. And also if you wanted spells like Burning Hands or Scorching Ray anyway, it frees up a choice for you from the Sorc list to take something else.

2) The FS's abilities definitely match up to the raw potency of the other Origins and just as "narrow." Half Plate + Shield is 17 AC -- you have higher AC than a Dragon Sorcerer's even if both had max DEX (FS 19, Dragon 18). Wings vs. Wings. Extra Attack (essentially double damage for your melee) vs. +CHA on specific blasting spells (varaible % increase, very good though) vs. the underwhelming "Bend Luck."

3) He doesn't realize that +66% spells known increase is severely downplaying it (that's at max level). At levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, it's a +100% increase in spells known. That's insane.

We'll see if he responds or not.

Yes, the spells known are strong. Best thing about the subclass, really.

Still leaves the subclass inferior in spells known to every other full caster except warlock. Er, unless its a tome lock, then the Soul loses again.

And the Favoured Soul gets 1 extra point of AC in exchange for 1 HP per level and no elemental resistance. That doesn't seem out of line to me. The extra attack is a small bump in damage over cantrips from level 6-10, and at level 11 the dragon sorcerer's juiced up cantrips will pull ahead for the rest of their careers. 5 levels of advantage in sustained damage followed by 10 levels of deficit is actually a liability.

The only reason the Favoured Soul looks powerful at all is because of the sorcerer's crushing limit on spells known. The Favoured Soul buys some versatility in spellcasting by having the weakest output of all sorcerers (no +CHA modifier, spell bombardment, or wild surges). I don't agree that it's OP.

 

[brehobit]

When someone makes a claim of overpowered, I want to see why. I'm not seeing it. Imbalanced compared to the other weak options available to sorcerer and ranger? Maybe. Overpowered? Not at all.

I'd say the spell-less ranger as-written is an upgrade of the battle master, which is (IMO) the most powerful fighter. The only thing missing is action surge, combat healing and a feat at level 6. What you get is all of the hunter subclass abilities (+d8 damage at 3rd level). The TWF or ranged battle master is just outclassed by this ranger IMO.

Sorcerer and ranger were the two weakest classes in the game. I hope these options make someone want to try either. They fall way behind most other classes unless you're a sorlock.

Ranger is much better than you seem to think. They have no real combat utility at level 1, but after that they do a fine job of keeping up with any of the martial classes with a lot of out-of-combat power on top of it.

The sorc. is, I agree, fairly weak. But the FS is just better than the other ones. By a fair bit. It's probably not overpowered compared to other classes, but it overshadows the other options too much. If this is an attempt to fix that, it should fix them all, not just add a better option.

 

[brehobit]

And the Favoured Soul gets 1 extra point of AC in exchange for 1 HP per level and no elemental resistance

Assuming a 14 dex it is AC 15 vs. 17, which is really quite a bit. Add in a shield and we are talking 15 vs. 19. Yes, that means medium armor and all the problems associated with that, but 4 points is huge. Add in the spell selection and it's just better than the dragon-based one IMO.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yes, the spells known are strong. Best thing about the subclass, really.

Still leaves the subclass inferior in spells known to every other full caster except warlock. Er, unless its a tome lock, then the Soul loses again.

And the Favoured Soul gets 1 extra point of AC in exchange for 1 HP per level and no elemental resistance. That doesn't seem out of line to me. The extra attack is a small bump in damage over cantrips from level 6-10, and at level 11 the dragon sorcerer's juiced up cantrips will pull ahead for the rest of their careers. 5 levels of advantage in sustained damage followed by 10 levels of deficit is actually a liability.

The only reason the Favoured Soul looks powerful at all is because of the sorcerer's crushing limit on spells known. The Favoured Soul buys some versatility in spellcasting by having the weakest output of all sorcerers (no +CHA modifier, spell bombardment, or wild surges). I don't agree that it's OP.

Why do you say "one point in AC"? From where I'm standing it looks more like four points. Dragon Sorcerer = AC 13 + Dex. Favored Soul = AC 15 (armor) + 2 (Shield) + Dex (up to 2). To reduce the differential to one point of AC, you'd need to pump Dex to 20, which you wouldn't.

I think Favored Soul is OP in the sense that it obsoletes the Dragon Sorc. Sorlocks are already one of the most attractive types of sorcerers. Now compare Warlock 2 / Favored Soul X to Warlock 2 / Dragon Sorc X, and what does the dragon sorc have going for it? Worse AC, marginally better HP, same cantrip, far tighter spell selection, no access to Bless/Lesser Restoration/Revivify/Death Ward/Raise Dead. With a dragon sorc you still need a cleric in the group, but with a Favored Soul you can be the DPR king and the healer. I would actually be tempted to play a Favored Soul over a wizard, which is good, but I would never again be tempted to play any other kind of sorcerer, which is bad.

 

[gyor]

I'm with those that don't think it looks over powerful, you sacrifice raw power for versality. Its not a huge amount of extra spells known. I'm very happy with it and wouldn't change it. If anything buff the other two sorceror types. And for the record all the Favoured Souls spells count as divine, not Arcane, just as an Eldrich Knights spells count as Arcane, not Martial.

Favoured Soul is also has the price of a greater MAD then other sorcerors, other sorcerors can afford to focus more on Charisma and Feats, while Favour Souls will want to invest more in physical ability scores as well.

 

[jgsugden]

FWIW, the two weapon ranger has the best DPR potential in the game when you eliminate limited resources (things that recharge on rest). The spell version is stronger than this alternate one, but it is by no means underpowered (except at level 1).

 

[the Jester]

Isn't this [the favored soul] crazy overpowered?

It's much more powerful than the version I wrote and one of my players has been using, but I may have erred on the side of caution.

That said, the additional spells known are a HUGE power-up for a character whose main limitation is the number of spells she knows.