Favored Soul

[Jdvn1]

This has been addressed many times before. The FS can boost up Wis and get just as good saves as a Cleric and it only costs him a few spells per day (of which he has many) due to a lower Cha. Or, he can focus on spells per day and blow off spells with saves. What you are mentioning here limits his utility, but not his power. There is a difference between power and utility. MAD is slightly limiting here, but not nearly as much as Monks or Paladins.

Limiting utility limits overall character power, even if it doesn't limit the power of some specific spells. MAD was a big enough drawback for it to be removed from psionics.

And, still, if you just go for a low Cha and high Wis, with a standard point-buy you might not even get 8th or 9th level spells without spending a lot of money on a stat-boosting item. Whereas a Cleric, Wizard, or Sorcerer doesn't have to sacrifice number of spells for high saves. Being able to concentrate on one stat, rather than dividing your resources, ends up being powerful.

As for power, Favored Souls are not much different than Sorcerers. People claim that Sorcerers are weak when they are in fact the most powerful core arcane spell casters. They are not as versatile as Wizards, but they are more powerful (due to spontaneous casting and spontaneous metamagic). Ditto for Favored Souls.

So you agree that FS's are balanced with the core books?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Of course it does. It also refers to Clerics and not FS's.

True, of course. However, given that the flavor of an FS is supposed to be even closer to a diety than a cleric ... I do not think KD's argument is a flavor-stretch. RAW, I agree that it only pertains to the cleric, though. In the end - all things considered - I agree with KD in that a DM could use the deity to limit spellcasting so long as he's consistant across the board in all cases.

As for power, I would argue that FS's are equivalent to the CORE classes. They're weaker than clerics and probably druids (although I despise wildshaping and am glad people I play with feel similar to it so I don't see them in play all that often). I think the FS is similar in power to the sorcerer, although a bit weaker due to some MAD but stronger in the save department. I would consider a FS stronger than a fighter and monk, certainly. But this is purely opinion, of course.

As for the earlier comment about the thaumaturgist build - you are correct that I am allowing the weapon focus/specialization go to waste. But few character builds that I know of use every tool they are given (outside of clerics who are given casting and turning and that's about it). It does make for a fun and useful character, and that's what I was after.

 

[Jdvn1]

True, of course. However, given that the flavor of an FS is supposed to be even closer to a diety than a cleric ... I do not think KD's argument is a flavor-stretch. RAW, I agree that it only pertains to the cleric, though. In the end - all things considered - I agree with KD in that a DM could use the deity to limit spellcasting so long as he's consistant across the board in all cases.

The DM can do whatever he wants, but KD is trying to argue RAW.

As for the earlier comment about the thaumaturgist build - you are correct that I am allowing the weapon focus/specialization go to waste. But few character builds that I know of use every tool they are given (outside of clerics who are given casting and turning and that's about it). It does make for a fun and useful character, and that's what I was after.

In my builds, I try to build on the strengths of a race and class. It's hard to use every tool you're given, but the FS gets a lot of combat perks, relatively.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I agree to your second comment. {I agree to your first comment, too, but that pretty speaks for itself in my earlier post about RAW/flavor argument regarding the diety and interaction with the character}.

However, I see the FS not as an offensively combat-minded build, but rather as a defensive combat survivor. Their saves speak to being able to last through the magical assaults and traps. Their energy resistance is designed to help them survive. Even their damage reduction (which I seldom see because I despise the wings and thus multiclass or PrC - but that's just me and not a reflection of a true FS 20 build) speaks to their defensive cababilities. About the only offensive tools the FS gets outright are the weapon focus/spec. (Wings are neutral). By choosing spells that do not require saves, I can turn the FS into being a survivor, rather than a punisher.

I'm not saying that your builds are incorrect by any means! There is nothing wrong with any divine caster being an offensive machine. I am simply trying to justify why I perceive the FS to be more defensively minded and don't mind not using weapon focus/spec.

 

[Jdvn1]

I'm not saying that your builds are incorrect by any means! There is nothing wrong with any divine caster being an offensive machine. I am simply trying to justify why I perceive the FS to be more defensively minded and don't mind not using weapon focus/spec.

I understand what you're getting at, but I look at the defensive stuff as a substitute for armor. My FS builds don't feature a lot of defense, so that's what the special qualities are for. And, my non-save spells are buff spells.

I like your build, though. I want to try it out with a high level character. I've always thought summoned creatures are too weak at any given level (and, once you get to higher levels, what do you do with lower-level summons?), but Thaumaturgist makes it more appealing, especially if I'm just giving flanking bonuses.

I'm not sure there is an "incorrect" build, and I even want to try for a FS caster build, though it seems tougher.

 

[humble minion]

On a slight side-note, I'm considering house-ruling that favoured souls can select their spells known from their deity's domains as well as from the cleric list. It makes the class much, much more flavourful, in my opinion - all favoured souls are a bit same-y otherwise. Does anyone think this would be unbalancing (my players aren't rabid power-builders, so I don't expect to see any of the really edge-case broken builds)? Should I limit them to picking spells from 2 domains each? Should I make it mandatory for one spell known of each level to be a domain spell?

 

[KarinsDad]

The DM can do whatever he wants, but KD is trying to argue RAW.

Yup.

PHB page 179

Some deities set the time or impose other special conditions for granting spells to their clerics.

This is under the section for preparing divine spells. The reason that it states cleric is because on the same page, it states that druids, rangers, and paladins get their spells from other divine forces (i.e. not deities). The intent is clear.

KD, your quote is flavor referring to domain selection.

Actually, it is in the first paragraph of the Deity, Domain, and Domain Spells section in the PHB where that first paragraph is not about domain selection at all, but rather about deity. And, that sentence is also in the SRD, hence, it is not completely flavor text.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: Choose a deity for your cleric. A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. You may also choose for your cleric to have no deity.

The fact is that Clerics are the only called out "deity specific" core PC, hence, our rules about how they interact with deities should be used as a guideline for how Favored Souls interact with deities. I loaned my Complete Divine to one of my players, but I wonder what text is in it concerning divine intervention.


As for utility, Favored Souls are a Spontaneous spell caster like a Sorcerer, but they get 17 more known spells than a Sorcerer (51 first or higher level instead of 34). That's 50% more known spells. When talking known spontaneous spells, that a huge utility increase.

A Cleric with a 28 Wisdom at 20th level can simultaneously know 65 1st or higher level different spells (+4 Cure spells) if he prays for 65 different spells. However, we all know that even Clerics tend to take certain key spells multiple times (often to cast at least once on each party member for some spells) and tend to not need the vast majority of spells they have access to. 51 compared with max (and usually lower) 69 on any given day is not that shabby. With regard to respective utility on any given day, the Favored Soul challenges the Cleric pretty strongly.

The "limited selection of spells" argument is not as strong as with a Sorcerer and is not that big of an overall limitation when compared to the extra good Reflex save (Metamagic Fireball is the way to toast Clerics) , energy resistance, weapon focus/specialization, spontaneous casting and spontaneous metamagic.

People who have played Favored Souls know that they rock.

 

[pawsplay]

Just change the name to Reverant Soul and you're good. Well, as good as the class is in the first place.

 

[Jdvn1]

This is under the section for preparing divine spells. The reason that it states cleric is because on the same page, it states that druids, rangers, and paladins get their spells from other divine forces (i.e. not deities). The intent is clear.

So, since you're trying to argue RAW, what's the actual rule? If some deities impose special conditions, then give me rules justification for what deities impose special conditions and when these special conditions are met.

If there aren't any specifics to back it up, it's a meaningless rule.

Moreover to argue your point, you need to then give a RAW justification to apply this Cleric rule to a Favored Soul.

Actually, it is in the first paragraph of the Deity, Domain, and Domain Spells section in the PHB where that first paragraph is not about domain selection at all, but rather about deity. And, that sentence is also in the SRD, hence, it is not completely flavor text.

And where does it mention Favored Souls?

The fact is that Clerics are the only called out "deity specific" core PC, hence, our rules about how they interact with deities should be used as a guideline for how Favored Souls interact with deities.

Guidelines aren't rules. If it were true that Cleric rules are meant to apply to Favored Souls, it'd be mentioned in the Favored Soul description, or at least somewhere in the Complete Divine. Or, in fact, anywhere at all. Sounds to me like you're just making an assumption.

As for utility, Favored Souls are a Spontaneous spell caster like a Sorcerer, but they get 17 more known spells than a Sorcerer (51 first or higher level instead of 34). That's 50% more known spells. When talking known spontaneous spells, that a huge utility increase.

The Sor/Wiz spell list is also considered to be much better than the Clr spell list. This is why Wizards are supposedly balanced to Clerics (in theory, your opinion, I'm sure, differs).

 

[IanB]

A Cleric with a 28 Wisdom at 20th level can simultaneously know 65 1st or higher level different spells (+4 Cure spells)

+8 cure spells, not 4 - the mass versions count for spontaneous casting. The FS has to take a big hit to spells known in order to match the cleric in healing versatility. Probably made up by spontaneous heal though.