D&D 1E Favorite Obscure Rules from TSR-era D&D

[James Gasik]

Oh the surprise chance could be a little better than 3 in 6. For one thing, surprise in 2e was 1-3 on a d10. Then, if the thief succeeded in their stealthy skills (which they could better optimize), they could improve that another 4 points for 6 in 10.

You are correct that it's a 3 in 10, derp, but how the surprised modifiers in the DMG apply to Thieves is a bit odd. They are listed for "silenced", "invisible", "camouflaged", "poor light", "darkness"

Hide in Shadows is not invisibility, and doesn't even function in darkness- camouflaged maybe? And I'm not sure that "Move Silently" is meant to be the same as magically silenced, but that might be splitting hairs- I'm used to AD&D DM's who rule very conservatively.

But you're right, the chance to be surprised could be better. Elves and Halflings impose a hefty penalty, with some caveats.

 

[Willie the Duck]

The 2e Thief isn't any better when it comes to backstabbing targets. You have to attack from behind, the target can't be aware of you, you only get one backstab, you have to be able to reach a vital target, the target has to be humanoid shaped, you must have surprise, the damage multiplier is for the weapon damage only (a small part of AD&D damage all things considered), ambush isn't surprise, surprise is a 3 in 6 chance (maybe), and you still have to hit, with your cruddy Thac0 and only a +2 to hit above anyone else (the +4 the class crows about only replaces the regular +2 for a back attack).

Oh the surprise chance could be a little better than 3 in 6. For one thing, surprise in 2e was 1-3 on a d10. Then, if the thief succeeded in their stealthy skills (which they could better optimize), they could improve that another 4 points for 6 in 10.

So let's look at the optimal scenario: -- level 13+ bandit kit thief who picked up those stealth skills, two-handed sword proficiency, and are attacking an ogre or similar. In that case, they have a 60% chance of getting +2 to hit over a fighter in the same scenario (but with a ThAC0 6 worse at that point) and doing an extra 12d6 damage. That's nice to have, but pretty nominal considering the investment, how often you get to do so (much less how often the setup is that optimal), and how infrequently it still would be a good idea to melee an opponent as a AD&D thief.

 

[James Gasik]

So let's look at the optimal scenario: -- level 13+ bandit kit thief who picked up those stealth skills, two-handed sword proficiency, and are attacking an ogre or similar. In that case, they have a 60% chance of getting +2 to hit over a fighter in the same scenario (but with a ThAC0 6 worse at that point) and doing an extra 8d6 damage. That's nice to have, but pretty nominal considering the investment, how often you get to do so (much less how often the setup is that optimal), and how infrequently it still would be a good idea to melee an opponent as a AD&D thief.

Exactly. Minor quibble, the two-handed sword is d10 in AD&D. For 2d6 you'll need a 2h greatspear, 2h katana, or (I think) dwarven longaxe.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Exactly. Minor quibble, the two-handed sword is d10 in AD&D.

d10 against S/M.

3d6 WOOT against Large!


The two-handed sword in 1e- aka, SUCK IT, HALBERD.

(The illegitimate sword was, of course, 2d4/2d8).

 

[James Gasik]

d10 against S/M.

3d6 WOOT against Large!


The two-handed sword in 1e- aka, SUCK IT, HALBERD.

(The illegitimate sword was, of course, 2d4/2d8).

Yeah but don't forget that if you want to backstab a giant you might have to be on a ledge or have a ladder handy.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Exactly. Minor quibble, the two-handed sword is d10 in AD&D. For 2d6 you'll need a 2h greatspear, 2h katana, or (I think) dwarven longaxe.

d10 against S/M.
3d6 WOOT against Large!

Yeah but don't forget that if you want to backstab a giant you might have to be on a ledge or have a ladder handy.

Snarf had the right of it. I used ogre* to get the 2h sword size L+ damage, then typoed the actual amount (now fixed).*which, as it happens is the monster included in the 2e AD&D backstab example on PHB p.40

 

[Lanefan]

I wonder if this is why Thief was the only class that all non-humans (excepting half-orcs) had unlimited advancement in.

That, and relative to most other classes Thieves level-bumped every time they sneezed; often putting them one or even two levels higher than most of the party.

Put another way, a 4th-level Thief is not equivalent to a 4th-level anything else, but a 5th might be and a 6th certainly is.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah but don't forget that if you want to backstab a giant you might have to be on a ledge or have a ladder handy.

Not necessarily. "Backstab" doesn't literally mean you have to stab it in the back; it just means you have to catch it off guard and hit it somewhere vital.

Last night my Thief backstruck a Frost Giant by hiding under a table then cutting through the back of its knee(s). Of course the Giant survived this then turned around and beat me to within an inch of death; but that's another story.

 

[Bagpuss]

The Complete Priest Handbook, that was a great guide to building your own pantheon of gods, and priests that weren't the standard armoured cleric with access to every divine spell.

 

[James Gasik]

Not necessarily. "Backstab" doesn't literally mean you have to stab it in the back; it just means you have to catch it off guard and hit it somewhere vital.

Last night my Thief backstruck a Frost Giant by hiding under a table then cutting through the back of its knee(s). Of course the Giant survived this then turned around and beat me to within an inch of death; but that's another story.

That's not what the rules say-