Feat Master

[Scion]

I was going by already existing feats.

And yes, many, if not all, class abilities should be able to be attained through feats.

10 hp is nothing. The difficulty of using Toughness to simulate it is the result of Toughness being alongside Endurance in the joke feat category.

Yes they are, good job for stating the obvious. Now, is it a feat? yes. So is it worth a feat? by definition a feat is worth a feat. so yes. Hence it is a good comparison. Even if is it a very unimpressive feat, it is used as a prereq for a lot of very good feats.

The Paladin has a better skillset as a Feat Master then as a Paladin, The only skill of note that he loses is Sense Motive. He keeps his essential skills of Diplomacy, Concentration, Ride, and Handle Animal.

Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis).
actually. so while not a huge hit still unfortunate in some ways.

Quit pretending that any class feature is worth a feat. If there was an alternate Barbarian with no Trap Sense, but with 6 bonus feats, would you be defending the class as balanced since each of those levels of Trap Sense was worth a feat? The Paladin is a crummy caster with a mediocre spell list and only half caster level.

I think that you have a major problem, exactly what it is though I am not sure. Trap sense is again a pretty sucky ability, but overall when you have a +6 with it then in feat terms it is probably worth 2 feats. +2 for the first and then +4 for the second, possibly +3 with each. That is just the way the game works. So yes, it is something that could and probably should be a feat. It may suck most of the time, but some peoples character concepts would really get a boost out of such a feat.

I do believe that there is a feat somewhere which increases a characters use of smite once per day. I dont know where, so it is possible that there isnt one or it was a houserule in a campaign I was in. Again, you may not pay for it, but that does not make it an option that should not be there. Personaly I hate dodge and feel it is also worthless. That however does not make it 'not a feat' nor does it make it 'not worth a feat'. Some class abilities are stronger or more useful than others. The same goes for feats.

A) The Mount has a Spell Resistance 5 lower, that's it.

B) It's two BAB, not 3. It's also insignificant.

At level 20 this is correct. So at the very maximum of power it is 5 behind, before that the mount probably DOESNT EVEN HAVE the ability. That is way more than 5 behind. Otherwise you are taking the class at the most beneficial time and getting a slightly larger benefit out of it. Cool. but in most real campaigns you would have to take it at a lower level, delaying your mounts abilities by a level each time you multiclassed.

My post says 2 BAB, you must have copied it at some point in the roughly 5 seconds it took me to press the edit button. Still though, 2 bab is not insignificant at all. Especially when it comes to iterative attack times, grappling, power attacking, etc etc. Especially for a primary combatant.

Just by browsing through my Complete Warrior, allow me to list some Feats that the Paladin could take and their effect.

1. Close Quarter Fighting: AOE whenever someone tries a Grapple. If it hits, grapple is avoided.
2-3.Extra Smite: 4 more Smites per day
4. Improved Toughness: +1 hp/level. Results in a higher hitpoint total then a straight Paladin.
5. Power Critical: +4 to Threat Confirms
6. Divine Vigor: Use Turn Undead use to increase speed by 10 and grant 2 temp hitpoints per level. Lasts 1 minute per Charisma Bonus.
7. Calvary Charger: not going to bother typing it all out, but it's really really unpleasant.
8-10. Iron Will, Great Fort, Lightning Reflexies: +2 to all saves.
10-13. Whatever I feel like
I lost 2 BAB, a Remove Disease/Week, and 2 4th Level Spells for that. My character has better saves, more hitpoints, more smites, is better at mounted combat, and can generally whomp any straight Paladin.

I dont have this book so I've no clue what it may or may not have in it. Nor do I know what the prereq's for any of these are as you did not list them. All of these feats you are gaining however are coming at level 15+ so generally they are coming very late in the carear of a pc.

So far all of your points are pretty much hogwash to put it nicely No classes are ever perfectly equal, I have already stated that the prc will need some prereq's of things that are less useful, and I have stated why I feel that the version I put up is much more balanced. If you use the one I said then at level 19 your character will be missing feats above 10 but gain two more.

::shrugs:: to each your own of course, but I have stated why it is and could be all right. you can disagree, but nothing you have said disproves what I said in any way shape or form. Laughing repeatidly instead of making a comment isnt useful.

 

[Ackem]

Yes they are, good job for stating the obvious. Now, is it a feat? yes. So is it worth a feat? by definition a feat is worth a feat. so yes. Hence it is a good comparison. Even if is it a very unimpressive feat, it is used as a prereq for a lot of very good feats.

You're being obtuse, Toughness is only used as a punishment Feat to balance certain overpowered Feats/PrCs. 10 hitpoints isn't worth 3 Feats because no one would ever take Toughness 3 times to get 10 hitpoints, nor would practically anyone ever take Toughness once to get 3 hitpoints. Using Toughness to get the HP equivalent of a Feat is worthless because while hp may have a Feat equivalent, it is certainly not just 3 hitpoints as no one would ever take Toughness just for the hitpoints. Toughness only becomes worth a feat when we consider the value of a PrC or feat chain that requires it.

Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis).
actually. so while not a huge hit still unfortunate in some ways.

Notice I said of "of note". Heal, much like Climb and Swim, is quickly rendered obsolete by the increasing magic content of the game. Knowledge (nobility) is slightly more useful but you only need so much knowledge of the subject, especially when Knowledge ramps up exponentially in effectiveness, and no character with only 2 skillpoints/level is going to be pumping Knowledge(nobility) every single level.

I think that you have a major problem, exactly what it is though I am not sure. Trap sense is again a pretty sucky ability, but overall when you have a +6 with it then in feat terms it is probably worth 2 feats. +2 for the first and then +4 for the second, possibly +3 with each. That is just the way the game works. So yes, it is something that could and probably should be a feat. It may suck most of the time, but some peoples character concepts would really get a boost out of such a feat.

Something can follow the rules for a Feat and still not be worth a Feat. Trap Sense would not be worth two Feats because a character built along a strictly utilitarian basis would simply not ever pick it. Unless maybe his DM consistently has him running through mazes constructed by Rube Al'Golberg.

Whatever guidlines you and the DMG may apply to ascertain the value of a feat are fairly irrelevant. Whether a character concept could be furthered by a feat is irrelevant. If you want an idea of the actual real-life worth of a feat, pay attention to economics and that, given the limited supply of feats, no character concerned about their effectiveness would pay a feat into these abilities unless there's a future carrot being dangled infront of them. Hence why abilities like the theoretical Trap Sense Feat, or Toughness, or Dodge, are so consistently made into prerequisite feats.

So you can't strictly compare a subpar ability to a feat. Even if SupPar Ability 1/Day is a feat, that does not mean that giving up SupPar Ability 1/Day should award you a feat. Because a character is very very unlikely to pick SupPar Ability 1/Day as a feat, instead he's going to pick Kick Butt 1/day and become a more effective character. If a character is giving up a bunch of abilities that only provide a marginal increase in effectiveness and mainly flesh out the class, it's silly to give him an equal number of feats inexchange. As the question isn't whether a drop in 10 hitpoints is worth Toughness 3 times, it's whether it's worth Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave.

I do believe that there is a feat somewhere which increases a characters use of smite once per day.

2 times a day. Defenders of the Faith originally, Complete Warrior more recently.

I dont know where, so it is possible that there isnt one or it was a houserule in a campaign I was in. Again, you may not pay for it, but that does not make it an option that should not be there. Personaly I hate dodge and feel it is also worthless. That however does not make it 'not a feat' nor does it make it 'not worth a feat'. Some class abilities are stronger or more useful than others. The same goes for feats

The difference between a class feature that's weaker and a feat that's weaker is that a class feature is part a package whereas feats can be picked. Trap Sense +1 sucks, but it's part of being a Barbarian. So Trap Sense +, the class feature, must be judged by what comes along with it and what I can gain in the future from staying a Barbarian (more rages, d12, decent skills, etc, etc) whereas the theoretical Trap Sense +1 feat would be judged according to what I could be picking instead. So what if there are some lame feats and a weak ability is ridiculously judged worth a feat if I never pick them?

So you can't strictly compare a subpar ability to a feat. Even if SupPar Ability 1/Day is a feat, that does not mean that giving up SupPar Ability 1/Day should award you a feat. Because a character is very very unlikely to pick SupPar Ability 1/Day as a feat, instead he's going to pick Kick Butt 1/day and become a more effective character. If a character is giving up a bunch of abilities that only provide a marginal increase in effectiveness and mainly flesh out the class, it's silly to give him an equal number of feats inexchange. As the question isn't whether a drop in 10 hitpoints is worth Toughness 3 times, it's whether it's worth Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave.

Nor do I know what the prereq's for any of these are as you did not list them.

Besides Calvary Charger (which requires several mounted feats) and Improved Critical (which requires Weapon Focus), every single one of these Feats has a requirement of only BAB, Base Save, or a Class Feature.

All of these feats you are gaining however are coming at level 15+ so generally they are coming very late in the carear of a pc.

They are? You can get some of them as early as level 2 and none (except Calvary Charger) later then 5.

 

[Trainz]

Hell, if I play a paladin, I would sacrifice remove disease and pokemount and spells for a whole bunch of feats without even stoping to think about it.

Give me, oh, say 5 feats for all those and you got yourself a deal !

That's 10 more smites man ! 10 MORE ! That and divine might (and maybe extra turning, for more divine might), and I'll be wading through hell with a grin on my face !

 

[Morgenstern]

Has anyone seen the "feat master" prestige class before?

No, but it's kinda obviously broken . Where is it from?

I can see the concept, but this thing needs to slow WAY down. Here's what I'd recomend...

Requirements:
Must have at least three levels in a single core class.

Hit Die: 1d6
Skill Points: 2 + Int Modifier
Class Skills: None (see below)

Lvl Att Fort Ref Will Special 
 1   +0  +0   +0  +0  Special Multiclassing, Continuity, Bonus Feat 
 2   +1  +0   +0  +0  Bonus Feat 
 3   +1  +1   +1  +1  2x Bonus Feat 
 4   +2  +1   +1  +1  2x Bonus Feats
 5   +2  +1   +1  +1  3x Bonus Feats

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: none

Special Multiclassing: Like all prestige classes, the feat master does not bestow any experience penalties for multiclassing. Additionally, the multiclassing restrictions placed on monks and paladins do not apply to the feat master.

Continuity: At 1st level, you may chose any four class skills from other classes you posses, These are considered class skills while advancing as a Feat Master.

Bonus Feats: Each level, the feat master gains a number of bonus feat equal to 1/2 his feat master level (round up). He must meet all prerequisites for these feats before choosing them. These feats are in addition to the feats the character normally gains every 3 levels.

Hope this helps ,

 

[Gez]

I'd knock the HD to 1d4. Seriously. The only purpose of this class is to gives feats -- it should give nothing else.

About class skills, I would give it none, period. Everything's cross-class. The feat master learns feat, he don't have time to lose with skills.

One can still put ranks in cross-class skills, can't he?

For the feat progression, Trainz's one seems acceptable, given my violent nerfing above.

 

[FireLance]

I agree with Gez. A Featmaster prestige class or meta-class should grant feats and nothing else. So, d4 hit dice, poor BAB progression (as wizard), all saves poor, no class skills and 2+Int skill points per level.

However, just piling on bonus feats sounds rather boring for a class that should be a true feat master. How about the following ability progression:

1. Bonus Feat
2. Bonus Feat, Prerequisite Bonus +2
3. Bonus Feat, Swap Feat.
4. Bonus Feat, Prerequisite Bonus +4
5. Floating Feat

Bonus Feat is self-explanatory.

Prerequisite Bonus: At 2nd level, the Feat Master's ability scores are considered 2 points higher for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites only. For example, a 2nd-level Feat Master with a Dexterity of 11 may take the Dodge feat, which requires a minimum Dexterity of 13. This does not affect any other ability score dependent aspects of feats, e.g. the number of additional attacks of opportunity gained from Combat Reflexes would not change. At 4th level, the Feat Master's ability scores are considered 4 points higher for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites.

Swap Feat: At any time that the Feat Master gains a new feat, including bonus feats from a class or prestige class, he may choose to lose one feat that he knows to gain another feat that he meets the prerequisites for. All the usual penalties for losing access to a feat apply, e.g. he may not be able to use other feats or prestige class abilities, if the feat lost was a prerequisite for the feat or prestige class.

Floating Feat: The Feat Master gains a "floating" feat slot that he can reassign once per day to any feat that he meets the prerequisites for. The Feat Master may only re-assign the feat slot when his mind is fresh, i.e. he must rest for the same amount of time that an arcane spellcaster needs to rest to replenish his spells. If he does not have sufficient rest, he is unable to re-assign the floating feat slot, but he does not lose access to the feat that he previously filled it with. If a Feat Master is a spellcaster, he may re-assign the feat slot prior to preparing spells.

 

[IndyPendant]

I just checked the tower to be certain, and yes he has vamped up the Feat Master a bit. I'm a bit disappointed actually; this is what the Feat Master used to be from the Tower:

FEAT MASTER
Requirements:
Must have at least one level in another class.
******************************
Class Features:
Hit Die: 1d6
Skill Points: 2
Class Skills: The combined class skills of the character’s other classes.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: none

Level Attack Fort Reflex Will Special
1.....+0....+0....+0....+0.....Bonus Feats, Special Multi-Classing
2.....+1....+0....+0....+0.....Bonus Feats
3.....+1....+1....+1....+1.....Bonus Feats
4.....+2....+1....+1....+1.....Bonus Feats
5.....+2....+1....+1....+1.....Bonus Feats

Bonus Feats - The feat master gains 3 more feats. These feats are in addition to any other feats the character normally gains.

Special Multi-Classing - Characters may not take two consecutive levels in the feat master class. Once a level of feat master is gained, another level cannot be obtained until the character advances at least one level in another class.
******************************
In my opinion, this isn't overpowered for a prestige class. And that opinion seems to be born out in that it has been taken precisely once, for one level, since I've presented it as an option about 1.5 years ago.

You get 3 feats/level, instead of 5 feats/2 levels--but you sacrifice virtually everything to get it. Worst saves all around, worst BAB, low hit points, worst skill points, and you have to alternate Feat Master with a regular class level.

I don't know about the new one--but I'm fine with their old one.

 

[the Jester]

This class is ridiculously overpowered.

Fighters are the feat masters.

One level with sucky everything else for two free feats is a good trade for just about anyone.

 

[AeroDm]

I like Morgenstern's the best of what I've seen thus far. Three feats as the 1st level of the class is jsut too attractive not to take it, but one feat/level really isn't enough with 1/2 BAB, no good save, et al. I think d6 is fine though, primarily because I agree with MC that d4 are a mistake in the game.

Regardless, I am not so sure it is a good idea to ever create a class such as this. With the variety of feats available, you are basically giving the green-flag to come up with a power combo of their choosing. I doubt many people would be dropping feats into Toughness and Lightning Reflexes to make up for what they lost in the multiclass, but rather would be taking some obscure chain of feats that mix to create a very annoying, very powerful character.

As has been said, classes exist as bundles of abilities that could be turned into feats. Some of the abilities are better than others, and you hope for a balance. This class has no bundle. People won't take abilities that are worse than others. You will create a super-bundle, and super bundles suck.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think FireLance's version of the class is _perfect_.