Feat Points?

[Nifft]

You mean like the Ultimate Magus' requirement of "any metamagic feat?"

Uh... No.

Very easily done. The best fix for prestige classes is to remove them.

You could say the same for Feats as a whole... but people like them, and thus your proposal would not make the game better.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Psion]

That would be a blessing. Faster combat

*snicker*

You know, man, I love HERO for what it is, but I don't think I would recommend it for "faster combat".

Very easily done. The best fix for prestige classes is to remove them.

You know, my recommendation would be, if you want HERO, not to hollow out D&D and replace it with HERO, but to play HERO.

 

[JoeGKushner]

*snicker*

You know, man, I love HERO for what it is, but I don't think I would recommend it for "faster combat".

I agree with that. Hero does some great things but speeding up combat isn't one of them.

You know, my recommendation would be, if you want HERO, not to hollow out D&D and replace it with HERO, but to play HERO.

And yet, as D&D continues to go the point buy rotue, (buying tricks with skill points, easy multi-classing, plethora of special abilities/powers/options), isn't D&D itself already well on that way?

 

[Psion]

And yet, as D&D continues to go the point buy rotue, (buying tricks with skill points, easy multi-classing, plethora of special abilities/powers/options), isn't D&D itself already well on that way?

It's not black-and-white. It's a spectrum, not a dichotomy. I don't buy the "slippery slope" or "with us or against us" arguments. It benefits from a certain degree of player choice in option selection. It also benefits from structure in those selections.

(Incidentally, I find the idea of buying tricks with skill points a questionable one, as I recall too clearly what happened in 1e/2e when you let players buy feat-like proficiencies with NWP slots. I think the game benefits from having separate "resource pools", something the point gen games out there would benefit from learning.)

 

[JoeGKushner]

So if a new book came out where a player could 'spend' an attribute point advancement on some nifty special ability, would you still argue that it's not a 'slippery' slop?

At what point do replacement special abilities and substitution levels simulate point buy so much that you are in essence playing point buy, just using a lot of hoops to do so?

 

[Nifft]

At what point do replacement special abilities and substitution levels simulate point buy so much that you are in essence playing point buy, just using a lot of hoops to do so?

At the point that they're in the core book.

The D&D learning curve seems to be:
- Learn a heavily quantized system
- When unsatisfied with that, learn ways to bend the quantization

... and to continue from there. The heavily quantized system is easy to learn for beginners. It's easy to create a PC that's not going to suck. Your state-space is very limited.

IMHO that's not a bad thing. Any replacement system should be at least as simple to get up & going.

Cheers, -- N

 

[GreatLemur]

At what point do replacement special abilities and substitution levels simulate point buy so much that you are in essence playing point buy, just using a lot of hoops to do so?

I suppose that point would be once all the various character-building commodities become interchangeable. That is, if I could trade a class level for a set of attribute bonuses (in a more direct and customized way than playing a level-adjusted race), or buy feats with skill points (instead of just vice-versa), buy hit dice and BAB bonuses with feats, etc.

 

[GreatLemur]

The heavily quantized system is easy to learn for beginners. It's easy to create a PC that's not going to suck. Your state-space is very limited.

IMHO that's not a bad thing. Any replacement system should be at least as simple to get up & going.

Yeah, I'd say that's pretty much it. I love point-buy, but I have to admit that it scares a lot of folks off. If any game should try to avoid the whole "OH NO! MATH!" factor, it's D&D.

 

[Harm]

I agree with that. Hero does some great things but speeding up combat isn't one of them.

Okay, I'm going take a swing...

My to-hit is...
base attack 15
+ normal strength bonus +3
+ weapon bonus +3
+ double focus and mastery + 4
+ did the bard sing, yes +2
+ am I flanking, not this round +0
+ I charged, +2
+ Did I get bullstrength this time, yes, +2
+ but bullstrength doesn't stack with gauntlets of ogre power, -1
+ I got enlarged -1 size
+ I got enlarged +1 strength
+ haste +1
+ I'm power attacking for 15 so -15
= 16

I hit...
Base damage is
d8
but enlarge person so 2d6
+ weapon bonus +3
+ strength +3
+ double specialiation and mastery +6
+ bullstrenghth which doesn't stack +1
+ enlarge person +1
+ bard song +2
+ swinging two handed 50% str bonus... ugh, whats my strength 16 + 2 + 2=20 so +5/2 = +2
+ power attack +30
= 48 + 2d6 damage on a hit

Oh, okay, now someone swings at me... My AC is...
30 normally
+ no shield -4
+ charge -2
+ dodge +1
+ dex drop for (gotta figure out if I'm using all my dex because of armour) enlarge -1
+ size for enlarge -1
+ haste +1
= 24

Yeah, DnD combat is sooooo fast and simple. :\ I have to be an expert in stacking rules, know and apply the modifiers from a dozen peices of equipment the character has, know and add the benefits of 3 different non-sensical special case spells, plus a song, know and apply the benefits of 5 different feat rules, know and apply special case rules for the combat action (charge), and special case rules for using a weapon two-handed instead of one.

A typical DnD combat at higher level has us opening the PHB a dozen or more times looking up special case rules, often spells, sometimes actions or skills, occasionally feats. HERO... even novice players rarely if ever have to stop the game to look up a rule. HERO combat is MUCH faster.

 

[JoeGKushner]

HERO... even novice players rarely if ever have to stop the game to look up a rule. HERO combat is MUCH faster.

But at the same time, say in a traditional fantasy hero game, you've got four players, three with speed 3 and one with speed 4 against say, eight goblins with speed 3.

Are you telling me that fight is going to go quicker than a similiar fight of low level characters in d20 against goblins?

No way.

The dice rolling alone takes a fairly substantial time no?