Feat Problems With PHB II

[Derren]

A little better? Its 25/75 for making the save.

 

[Nebulous]

A little better? Its 25/75 for making the save.

Well yeah, it's a lot better, but that particular fighter is good at Will saves, and not fighting!

 

[Votan]

A little better? Its 25/75 for making the save.

After investing 4 feats in being good at this you start to look like a Cleric does naturally. That seems okay. I'd be way more worried of high level fighters didn't seem so challenged.

 

[Derren]

If he really is a fighter then he has more feats then he needs anyway so 4 don't hurt much

 

[Lorehead]

Personally, I think that something like this is a much-needed patch for the system at high levels. Right now, high-level characters can only fail against a lot of abilities on a natural 1, but they're guaranteed to roll a natural 1 on a saving throw sometime. This means that a pack of beholders is not much more of a threat to the party than a flock of cockatrices.

As the Epic Level Handbook itself acknowledges, this is especially a problem with death by massive damage, once you reach the point where every blow does at least 50 hp. No matter what you do to raise your Fortitude save, you still die on a roll of natural 1, and you still have to roll several of those a round. Steadfast Determination means that all those dinky little DC 15 Fort saves can no longer kill you, so your survival is no longer a matter of pure luck. Tanking becomes possible again.

Indomitable Soul doesn't seem as if it fundamentally changes the fact that enchantment spells are a huge gamble. Succeed, and you're better off than if you'd killed the foe, but fail and you've wasted a spell. Many creatures are totally immune, and there are some very effective wards. The size of the bonuses don't seem excessive, and the need to roll snake eyes on 2d20 to fail a piddly low-DC save is a good, and much-needed, counter to what would otherwise be the cheesy tactic of using Automatic Quicken Spell + Multispell (or other similar combinations) to make opponents roll again and again and again until the die comes up a 1.

 

[KarinsDad]

Note that that's 4 out of 7 total feats most PCs will get, and it does not work with all Will saves.

3 out of 7 for a Ranger.

But, it is definitely a Fighter combo since Fighters still get their other feats.

The +2 works on all Will saves and the + CON bonus works on all Will saves.

The two rolls does not work on all Will saves, but it works on the ones where the character totally loses control which is what most Fighters are worried about: Fear, Domination, Confusion, etc.

Sure, it will not stop Bestow Curse (although the character will typically be +4 to +8+ better on the save depending), but spells like Bestorw Curse do not totally stop a combatant type from fighting.

 

[Lorehead]

A little better? Its 25/75 for making the save.

Bear in mind that Iron Will gives you a 10% chance to succeed due to the feat, and Epic Will gives you 20%. These are against all Will saves, not merely a subset. A combo that means that 50% of all attempts succeed and would otherwise have failed averages out to 12.5% per feat. That doesn't seem out of line at all.

 

[Derren]

You know, generally when you have to go epic to defend a combination then you can be sure that it is overpowered.

 

[ThirdWizard]

But, it is definitely a Fighter combo since Fighters still get their other feats.

I think the real problem is the Fighter. It's impossible to balance a powerful high prereq. feat when most classes will have to spend over 50% of their feats to get it, but Fighters have to spend around 20%. The feat tree is abysmally underwhelming when looked at from a straight class Barbarian standpoint, but throw a Fighter at it and suddenly its trivial to take.

But, I've had that problem for a long time now.

 

[Sejs]

If he really is a fighter then he has more feats then he needs anyway so 4 don't hurt much

There is no such thing as having more feats than you need.