Feat Taxes, or, It's That Time of the Week Again

[GMforPowergamers]

Lets take a look at some more... lets say challangeing end guys...

Pit Fiend Captain
Large immortal humanoid (devil)
Level 30 Elite Soldier (Leader) XP 38000
HP 550; Bloodied 275
AC 46; Fortitude 43, Reflex 39, Will 41

Allabar, Opener of the Way
Gargantuan aberrant animate
Level 30 Solo Soldier XP 95000
HP 1100; Bloodied 550
AC 45, Fortitude 43, Reflex 41, Will 43

Dregoth, Sorcerer-King
Huge natural magical beast (shapechanger, undead)
Level 30 Solo Controller XP 95000
HP 1072; Bloodied 536
AC 44, Fortitude 43, Reflex 40, Will 43

Orcus Empowered
Gargantuan elemental humanoid (demon)
Level 34 Solo Brute (Leader) XP 195000
HP 1525; Bloodied 762
AC 48; Fortitude 51, Reflex 46, Will 49

Vecna
Medium immortal humanoid (undead)
Level 35 Solo Controller (Leader) XP 235000
HP 1580; Bloodied 790
AC 49; Fortitude 49, Reflex 47, Will 51

Bahamut
Huge immortal magical beast (dragon)
Level 36 Solo Soldier XP 275000
HP 1316; Bloodied 658
AC 52; Fortitude 47, Reflex 45, Will 47

lowest ac 44...highest 52
lowest Nads 39 highest Nads 51...

lets take the new book of shadows... Lets say i want to play a bad guy and kill Bahamut...

AC 52; Fortitude 47, Reflex 45, Will 47

is that enough of a challange?

Ok, lets start with an 18 attack stat, and an accurate implment...and go for demi god (If I am takeing on a god I might want to take his power higlander syle)

+9 stat +6 magic +1 accurate imp+15 half level +31 to hit...since this is an implment attack i will be targeting a NAD... so I need Vs Fort 16, Vs Ref 14 Vs Will 16...

So a Volakya Vampire at 30th level without expertise can take on the biggest monster in the game needing a 14-16 to hit. Now if I take expertise... that becomes 11-13

If I flank without expertise it is 12-14
If I flank with expertise it is 9-11

Please...I am begging you...tell me I am miss doing this math...becuse the biggest baddest monster in the game (the only level 36 and it is a soldier) by something people are calling a bad striker... who is 6 levels lower then it...can hit it without expertsie...

so there is math with and without expertise...


but what happens when he faces an equal level (insted of 1 level higher then lev+5) like that pitfiend from the top of the post...

AC 46; Fortitude 43, Reflex 39, Will 41

without expertise +31 to hit...since this is an implment attack i will be targeting a NAD... so I need Vs Fort 12, Vs Ref 8 Vs Will 10...

if I have combat advantage and target ref... I only miss 25% of the time... that is crazy...


Put a warlord with that vampire and I think Bahamut will cry...

 

[Aegeri]

Put a warlord with that vampire and I think Bahamut will cry...

The class with 2 (3 surges) without durable anyway, against a creature that has an MBA that reduces you by 2 surges when it hits (and can hit automatically with it on another power when he uses it)? Um, you need to rethink that statement a bit I feel

Now if we're talking about a thief or something that REALLY kicks out the MBAs, now we're in business.

It's worth noting in the above that monster NADs are something curious in 4Es design. Most monsters have strength/con primary, so tank reflex/will very often. Even in Monster Vault, the majority of monsters are fort primary and reflex/will secondary. So targeting fort typically sucks the most, while attacking a creatures reflex and will is almost always optimal. Also Orcus Empowered still sucks, marginally less than the original but he's still not very good. At least he picked up an at-will burst though, but not enough to really give him the bite an end game antagonist really needs.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

so I figured (after posting) that vecna is harder for the vampire to fight...higher NADS...

AC 49; Fortitude 49, Reflex 47, Will 51

+9 stat +6 magic +1 accurate imp+15 half level +31 to hit...since this is an implment attack i will be targeting a NAD

You need a nat 20 to hit Will, an 18 for Fort, and a 16 for ref. That atleast seams hard... and like maybe fighting vecna is a bad idea... but...no lets forget the aura thing...it only make it easier for the vamp...

lets see this with expertise... 17 will, 15 fort, and 13 ref...

what about combat advantage you ask...

with out expertise 18 will, a 16 fort, and 14 ref
with expertise... 15 will,13 fort, 11 ref...

I mean here is the god of secretes who hate vampires...and the op board says the vamp sucks... and with outh expertise and with out combat advantage, and no leader bonuses he is again 16-20 ... and that is not starting with a 20 stat eaither...


so i can see that expertise make you more accurate, and more powerful... but I am not seeing them as needed... infact the hardest fight you can expect is still no un winable...

 

[keterys]

75% chance to hit, with combat advantage, against an equal-level opponent's lowest defense? A defense that's 3 lower than the average for that level. How's that crazy?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The class with 2 (3 surges) without durable anyway, against a creature that has an MBA that reduces you by 2 surges when it hits (and can hit automatically with it on another power when he uses it)? Um, you need to rethink that statement a bit I feel

You are right... infact that is my point most of the time... and you proved it well.

I only used def vs att and ignored all powers and other things that matter...

edit: minor nit pick (and not takeing away the fact that you are right) 3 with out durable...you get one at paragon levels...so 5 with durable...and can 3 times in the encounter can gain surges...4 if he has the right daily, so that is 6-9 surges depending on daily and durable feat

Now if we're talking about a thief or something that REALLY kicks out the MBAs, now we're in business.

I was useing the warlord for bonus to hit and damage, not grant extra attacks...but yea

It's worth noting in the above that monster NADs are something curious in 4Es design. Most monsters have strength/con primary, so tank reflex/will very often. Even in Monster Vault, the majority of monsters are fort primary and reflex/will secondary. So targeting fort typically sucks the most, while attacking a creatures reflex and will is almost always optimal. Also Orcus Empowered still sucks, marginally less than the original but he's still not very good. At least he picked up an at-will burst though, but not enough to really give him the bite an end game antagonist really needs.

that is why in my last post I changed the fight to vecna (and yes I ignored the aura becuse:

Any undead creature that starts its turn within the aura regains 50 hit points.

makes the fight too easy

I really pulled the monsters at random (except big plat drag god) to just show some range of defenses in the end game...

 

[MrGrenadine]

ok, so just to make sure I am clear... you see options that can keep you up with the math without expertise...

would those need nerfing...

I mean if we bake in the +1/2/3 at 5/15/25 as has been suggested do I take away fighter weapon talent, rouge weapon talent, kensi +1 to hit... epic destiny bonuses to stats???

becuse again I am lefte asking about the super high to hit bonuses already that get 3 pts for free...

I haven't seen the super-high to hits bonuses in your examples in play, but I can see how they'd be possible if a player is really conscientious about maximizing the right abilities, and a DM is really conscientious about dropping the highest level items possible. I'm also not advocating inherent bonuses--thats a DM/group decision, case by case.

As far as I'm concerned, Expertise is there to make sure players can create the interesting, non-mechanically optimized characters they want and still hit 55% of the time through Epic--without having to min/max abilities, and without having to constantly be upgrading items every level, etc.

I don't think useful feats or powers should be nerfed to dissuade folks from combining them with Expertise. If extremely high to-hit bonuses become a problem, then thats something each particular DM and group needs to solve in whatever way is best for them.

 

[FireLance]

In any event, showing you can beat Orcus is like demonstrating that a heavy weight boxer could trivially beat a 99 year old grandmother in a fight. Orcus is one of the worst designed solos in 4E, plus suffers from being a brute and therefore having mechanical suck built into him.

Actually, the key point to that was not so much that Orcus could be beaten, but that for the majority of the fight, the PCs were hitting him as long as they didn't roll a 1, without using Expertise, and using powers and abilities from just the first PH.

Admittedly, it's an optimized party, but even if you scale back on the optimization, hit chances should still be pretty good without Expertise.

As for being a brute, that is offset by the fact that he's 33rd level, which puts his AC on par with the 30th level solo soldier Ancient Red Dragon, and his other defences are higher.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Actually, the key point to that was not so much that Orcus could be beaten, but that for the majority of the fight, the PCs were hitting him as long as they didn't roll a 1, without using Expertise, and using powers and abilities from just the first PH.

Lets really look at this. with phb1 only (today with all erratta) that can play through any level 30 encounter...

 

[FireLance]

Lets really look at this. with phb1 only (today with all erratta) that can play through any level 30 encounter...

From the warlord, we still have the attack bonus granting lead the attack, though it now only lasts one round. He can supplement it with thunderous fury.

The rogue still retains feinting flurry, the cleric still has plague of doom, the fighter still has chains of sorrow, and the paladin still has hand of the gods.

Even assuming the characters don't "double up" on these powers with the use of multiclassing and power swap feats, the PCs still have four encounter attack powers that can be used to grant allies a bonus to attack rolls or penalize an opponent's defenses. With the demigod epic destiny's Divine Miracle feature, they can recover and use them continuously.

EDIT: I forgot one more - the ranger's armor splinter. Although it only affects AC, it is is quite effective in a party that mostly uses mostly AC-targeting attacks.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

lead the attack, thunderous fury. feinting flurry,plague of doom, chains of sorrow, hand of the gods. armor splinter.

and that is one scary list of powers for a DM to be stareing down...