Feat Taxes, or, It's That Time of the Week Again

It maintains it if you take it. You won't find me arguing it shouldn't be baked into the system inherently or that the current fix isn't a feat tax.. but some people don't accept the reality that it

1.) Actually is a fix to a real issue, according to the people who made the game.
2.) Is therefore a feat tax.

What to do about this situation is different from just getting people to acknowledge that is how the math works out and the devs said so, so we know that is the case anyway. Though if everyone would acknowledge that, and they should, the developers would no doubt be more inclined to errata in an actual fix.
I don´t want a real fix baked into the math to be honest. I just want a free expertise feat at level 1,11 and 21 or so...

I don´t like everyone beeing as good with all weapons from the beginning. So expertise allows specialization on one weapon. The problem, is giving out one or 2 expertises on level 1 and maybe some more later. As to defenses: a simple +1 at 11 and 21 would be sufficient, and feats reverted to +2 etc. And maybe a third attribute bump at level 4,8 etc...
 
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Can't count any other bonuses, they are always in addition to the minimum. So... null. Minimum is supposed to be maintained regardless of tactics or party composition. You can't prove it isn't needed when the system designers say it is for the system to work as intended. The moment you bring up "Warlord bonuses" you've actually proved you don't even understand all the facts behind the issue. And that is all you've proved.

Also, did you play at Epic? Because characters who started with the minimum, at epic, go down to 35% chance to hit vs even level if they don't happen to have class bonuses. Elites: 25%. Add four levels for an E+4, 5%. Solo.. oops, another defense boost. You can literally get to the point where an E+4 solo requires a 20 to hit, not crit, and even with CA you crit on a 20... but miss on a 19. Not that this situation was terribly threatening with MM1 monsters, you just whacked the thing till it died anyway, but it wasn't intended to be possible at all.

The minimum exists for a good reason. Expertise is the only way of maintaining the minimum (nearly, anyway, every ED should have a stat boost, a reroll mechanic, or a flat +1 to attacks, or something powerful enough to compensate for not having it, but I digress).

And yes Guileful Switch was errata'd, you can now only use it as the first action on your turn, so no more double-turning.


I very strongly disagree with the part I bolded... Honestly, if that's what the designers intended, then I can only say that (not surprisingly) I also strongly disagree with their views on how the game should work.

If the game is supposed to maintain the same exact chances at all levels of play, I don't see the point in having levels. To me, it makes sense that Epic Threats would be more difficult -and require greater teamwork- than lesser threats.

To answer your other question, yes, I did play Epic. I've gone from 1 - 30 many times. I never once experience what you are suggesting whenever I had a character which I built within the reasonable expectations of the game. By this I mean that I started with stats in my primary scores which the game suggested I should have.

In my eyes, having different resources at those higher levels do indeed matter. Even if I'm not counting bonuses, having a power which targets Will or Reflex instead of AC (for example) is a big boost simply because those are (typically) easier defenses to hit. This too is part of what I mean by better tactics - knowing your enemy.

Like I said, I'll search for the old thread in which I had this conversation before when looking at MM1 vs a Character without any bonuses. I have been looking; it's just taking a while because it was several years ago. For now I'll concede that -if you're not allowed to factor in any of the party's resources- the feats were needed when facing opponents four levels higher.

Best case scenario, let's say you're 100% correct and I am 100% wrong. That still ends up being somewhat shoddy design because it does in fact mean you need to choose this feat. Meaningful choice has been removed from an area of the game where choice is supposed to give the player freedom to mold their character.

Even if the feats aren't needed, they still end up being no-brainer choices simply because of how much they boost a character's power. This is actually something I can comment on from a current campaign. I'm playing a Warlord; the party also has a second Warlord in the party. I chose Expertise; the other player didn't and instead went with more flavorful choices (which, normally, I am very much in favor of when not playing D&D.) He also chose a weapon which has less of a proficiency bonus than mine does. We both have attacks which grant bonuses and healing to the party; I hit far more often... needless to say, even though I do not feel I *need* the feat, seeing the difference in what amount of power I contribute to the party with it as opposed to without it makes me choose the feat every time.

To be sure, and to go back and press upon my point again, I do in fact believe there are flaws in how 4E is built. I in no way disagree with that. However, I do not feel that Expertise feats were necessary; other options (which include prompting players to be a little more thoughtful when combating tougher foes,) I believe, would have been far more satisfying to fix some of the issues.

Real quick though, let's assume you really did need a 20 to hit, and, out of curiosity, see what happens if we are allowed to factor in party resources. Flanking brings that 20 to an 18; aid another can be used to get to 16; I'd be flabbergasted if somebody in the party didn't have something to at least give a +2 bonus to get to 14, and I'd also be highly surprised if the creature didn't have one defense which was a point or two lower than the others... let's say 13 to be generous to the monster. Keep in mind, this is 4 levels higher than the party. Oh, and lest we forget that one of the new design changes was the remove some of the defense boosts to solos... hmm, weird.

I can hear the response now "but that means some members of the party need to use their turns to help somebody else instead of getting to do something." Um, well, yeah, I thought that was the point of how 4E was built? To work as a team. Also, weren't we talking about a solo in this example? A monster which is supposed to be equal to five creatures? Yet it seems odd that it would take multiple characters to effectively combat one? Not to me..

So, what's the alternative? Well, let's give out expertise; let's make the defenses of monsters easier, and on top of that let's still allow characters to keep everything they had before too. "Solos suck! They die too easy! They can't challenge the party." One of the biggest complaints against solos had been economy of actions; hoever, looking at my first theoretical situation, the problem was shared by both sides of the fight. The solo has only one turn; the party had to pool their resources together to combat the solo... seems balanced to me.
 

Eh... the "need a 13 to hit with half the party dedicated to one person's attack" means that you're averaging less than one hit per round. Are you arguing that 20+ round combats are desirable? I mean, I've done the 18 round combat against a solo before, and it really got pretty old :(

I'm in the "one way or another, Expertise is messed up" camp. Either it's waaaay too powerful, or it should have been baked into the system like masterwork bonuses. Even if they decided to do it like inherent bonuses and make it an option for DMs to adopt or not.
 

Eh... the "need a 13 to hit with half the party dedicated to one person's attack" means that you're averaging less than one hit per round. Are you arguing that 20+ round combats are desirable? I mean, I've done the 18 round combat against a solo before, and it really got pretty old :(

I'm in the "one way or another, Expertise is messed up" camp. Either it's waaaay too powerful, or it should have been baked into the system like masterwork bonuses. Even if they decided to do it like inherent bonuses and make it an option for DMs to adopt or not.


I'm not saying I want 20+ rounds. I was saying that, worst case scenario (needing a 20 to hit at all,) it was still possible to hit before Expertise. That's the worst case scenario, and it does not take into consideration either that I was being very generous in favor of the monster by giving only paltry bonuses to the party.

Likewise, as I said, part of some of the new design ideals included lowering the defenses of monsters. Doing that in conjunction with making PCs stronger seems a little bit of overkill.

I do agree with you though. Either way you look at it, Expertise doesn't quite add up right. From one point of view it was needed, so you have to take the feat or else you can't hit. From the other, it wasn't needed, but it's still so good that you'd be a fool to not take it in most cases.
 

You disagree with an objective fact stated by the game designers. Um. K. /shrug. That makes this a reasonable discussion, starting out with facts and then trying to substitute your opinion.

In the scenario I presented CA already brought you from hitting on a 20 to crititng on a 20... but still missing on a 19. And that was realistically possible with a 16 stat character in an E+4 solo encounter. The thing you really don't seem to get is that 4e was designed so that unoptimized characters would be minimally effective, and never go below that minimum. Short of one-rounding solos there isn't a maximum level of effectiveness that the devs seem to care about, so it doesn't matter, from a design perspective, how much extra bonuses and team work increase you over the minimum. But the minimum must exist regardless of party composition, tactics, or power selection. If a generic PC isn't hitting the minimum hit% the system isn't working as intended.

And, in fact, the reason for this is that during playtesting they had 14+ round combats on a regular basis. That is why 55% is the minimum, slightly tilted in the player's favor, just like the house in Vegas.

You can disagree with the designers if you like... but you can't say the system is working as intended without Expertise. Because it doesn't.

Now I'm not inclined to argue that Expertise is the best fix for the systemic flaw (and the flaw is not only about hit%, is goes into nearly every bonus that scales by level) but it is the fix we have. Given that it is a fix, and it is, it is a Feat Tax by the definition we use for Feat Taxes. So it should be truly fixed and baked in.
 

No. Not baked in. Please bonus feats. Why should you be equally good with every weapon? So please, just give out 2 extra feats at level 1, and some more later on. It is an easy fix. Breaking nothing. No taxes to pay. You just get an extra resource, period!
 

basic level break down...

level 1
16 attack stat +2 prof weapon
+5 to hit Ac14-18 needs a 9-13

level 8
18 stat +2 magic +2 prof weapon
+12 to hit AC 21-25 needs a 9-13

Level 14
20 stat +4 weapon
+18 to hit AC 27-31 needs a 9-13

level 21
22 stat +5 weapon
+23 to hit AC 34-38 needs an 11-15

Level 28
24 stat +6 weapon
+29 to hit AC 41-45 needs a 12-16


monster by DMG...lv +3 for easy, lv +5 for mod and lv +7 for hard...

at 28th level it is the worst... fighting a hard fight needts a 16 for the LEAST optimized a character can be and still be viable...

lets do a very optimized version (I wont call it the most optimized)

A rapier rouge...

level 1
18 attack stat +3 prof weapon
+7 to hit Ac14-18 needs a 7-11
+7 to hit NAD 11-15 needs 4-8

Level 14
22 stat +4 weapon
+20 to hit AC 27-31 needs a 7-11
+20 to hit NAD 25-28 needs a 5-8

level 21
26 stat +5 weapon
+28 to hit AC 34-38 needs an 6-10
+28 to hit NAD 31-35 needs 3-7

Level 28
28 stat +6 weapon
+37 to hit AC 41-45 needs a 4-8
+37 vs NADs

see if you built in those +1/2/3 how way too easy it
 

For the attack roll disparity, I houserule a +1 bonus to attacks at 15, and a +2 at 25 while expertise becomes a flat +1 to attacks with the appropriate weapons or implements.

The defense disparity doesn't bother me as much.
 

see if you built in those +1/2/3 how way too easy it

According to your numbers, starting with an 18 stat, using +3 proficiency weapon, and having access to +4 or better weapons starting at level 14(!?), all render the Expertise feats unnecessary.

However, for a V shaped character that started with a 16 Str, using a +2 prof weapon, with more reasonable enhancement for the given level...well, I see the necessity of the feats.

In short, the feats are a way to fix the math for anyone who doesn't want to create a character who is optimized to fix the math.
 

Um, +29 at 28 is correct but that'd be vs 42 AC for even level (level+14). You'd hit on a 13+, vs an even level solo you'd need a 17+, and versus a +4 (for an e+4 monster, which is well within guidelines) you'd need a 21+ on the die... oh wait. Hell, vs a level+3 solo you'd need a 20 on the die. Granted you'd crit... but you'd miss on a 19.

You're well away from the minimum, which just proves the point. The minimum isn't maintained without Expertise. The intention to have a minimum is a fact. So.... should you keep proving my point or are we good?

Also your Rogue example is just poor for a variety of reasons, up to and including the numbers are wrong.

Rogues are hyper accurate strikers. That is their whole shtick. Rogues are supposed to to be, roughly, 10-15% more accurate then the average character, not accounting for all the powers that allow them to get CA trivially. So that puts the class minimum for Rogues at 65%. vs 42 AC that would be +34 at 28. At 28 that is +7 (stat)+3 (prof)+14 (1/2 level)+6 (Enh) is +30... (and these numbers are right, I'm just not sure how you got +37) that is... ohhh 12+, darn, missed the minimum by 4.

Again, there is no maximum. In order for you to be right every single class needs to maintain 55% all the way to level 30 vs average even level defenses. They don't. It doesn't matter if that means Rogues are hitting on 2s and 3s, hyper-accuracy is part of their class.

So, again, it doesn't matter if a character without Expertise can maintain the minimum by optimizing (and some can, though your example was incorrect and you picked a class that is actually supposed to be more accurate then the minimum, invalidating it even had your numbers been correct). It only matters if all characters can provably maintain the minimum without optimizing. They can't. Expertise fixes this gap. The gap that the designers admitted was their mistake and was not their intention.
 

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