Feats and +1 spellcaster level

[Cheiromancer]

Is a feat worth more or less than a "+1 spellcaster level"?

If it is worth more, then something like this should be a balanced feat:

Extra Spell Power

Pre-requisite: Spell casting as a class ability.

Benefit: Choose one of your spellcasting classes. You get +1 spellcaster level for that class. If this would make your spellcaster level higher than your character level, you do not get extra spells or spells per day, but do get a +1 effective caster for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks.

If it is worth less, then any prestige class with a "+1 spellcaster level" special ability could be paired with a class identical to it except with "+1 bonus feat" replacing the "+1 spellcaster level."

Is there something wrong with this analysis? Any opinions on the relative worth of feats and spellcaster levels?

 

[seasong]

I am inclined to believe that they are roughly equivalent, but with the addendum that caster levels which exceed your character level should not be allowed. Higher level spells don't just add to your power (which feats do), they change the nature of the game, and the various classes, monsters, items, etc., are balanced around the idea that the game changes at certain levels, but not before then.

 

[Spatzimaus]

"+1 spellcaster level" is worth considerably more than one bonus Feat, IMO. Remember, classes with bonus Feats tend to have nice things like full BAB, big hit dice, and armor/weapon usage, while spellcasters don't.

First, you HAVE to make sure the player can only choose the Feat once. As written that's how it works (since any feat capable of being taken multiple times has to say so), but from your explanation that's not what you intended. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few ways this'd be easily abused if you don't do that. Like this:

I'm a Fighter 2/Wizard 10. The fighter levels give me 2 bonus Feats, and so I'll spend 2 of my general Feats buying your Feat.
Compared to a Wizard 12, I have the same number of other Feats, have the same spellcasting ability, but have 6-9 more HP and +1 BAB, plus full armor/weapon proficiency. The only "downsides" are that my familiar is weaker and I'll have to wait two extra levels to get my next bonus item creation/metamagic Feat.
Better yet, I'll be a Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10. I get five bonus Feats (two of which can be psionic ones, the other three are Fighter feats), so if I take your Feat with five of my general Feats, I gain all of those other abilities, but I'll still cast as a 20th level Sorcerer.
("But fighter feats aren't that useful for you!" you say. Okay, I'll take Inertial Armor, Speed of Thought, Improved Initiative, Dodge, and Mobility. Although, with all those EK levels my BAB will be +16, so I might as well get a decent weapon and take Feats that help that, especially archery ones)

It's just too much. You shouldn't be able to get a class' entire level benefits with one Feat. If you made this a one-shot Feat it might not be so bad, but I'd still love it for a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight, since I'd only sacrifice one spellcasting level instead of two. And that's the basic abuse: anyone who takes one level of Fighter and then goes straight caster would basically be getting all those other Fighter-related abilities for free. A Fighter 1/Cleric X would be the same as a Cleric X+1, except that he'd get all weapon proficiencies for free.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Re: Feat is too much

So suppose I took a class like Arcane Trickster and replaced all the "+1 spellcaster level" entries with "bonus feat"?

I don't know what your opinion is of the Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight, but one could make a similar substitution there. Would that substitution produce a class which was just as balanced (or unbalanced) as the original?

 

[whydirt]

Here's a feat I suggested forever ago that hong snatched up and posted on his site:

Improved Spellcasting [general]
[suggested by “Whydirt” on the EN World boards] You have increased your spellcasting ability in one of your classes.

Prerequisites: Multiclassed spellcaster.

Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class you possess. You are treated as if you have up to two extra class levels for the purpose of determining your effective caster level for that class. You do not gain any extra spells per day or spells known, but all other class features and spell characteristics dependent on caster level are improved in line with your new caster level. This feat cannot make your caster level exceed what it would be if you were not multiclassed.

Special: You may gain this feat multiple times. Each time you gain this feat, it affects a different spellcasting class.

 

[reapersaurus]

"+1 spellcaster level" is worth considerably more than one bonus Feat, IMO.

I agree completely.
Which leads to the obvious conclusion, that the EK is horribly broken, since it gets full BAB, plus (effectively) more than 1 feat per level.

Simple equation (based on a subjective opinion) that proves the EK shouldn't exist.

 

[Eridanis]

Funny - this afternoon at work, I had an idea for a PrC and was going to post a thread about it seeking input on the bare bones of the idea, but it fits perfectly into this thread.

It's for a wizard that wants to rely more on feats than on pure spellcasting level. He would be a bit less powerful than a mage of equivalent level, but his spells would be faster/bigger/more damaging. So, for further thought on this subject:

************************
Metacaster

10-level prestige class

Prereqs: Spellcraft 8 ranks; Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks; ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells

BAB, saves: As wizard
HD: d4
Skill Points: (2+INT bonus)/level
Class skills: TBD (similar to wizard list)

Abilities:

Spellcasting: At 1st, 2nd, 6th, & 7th levels, the metacaster gains one level of arcane casting ability.

Bonus feats: At 2nd level, and every even-numbered level thereafter, the metacaster chooses a bonus feat. This feat must be a metamagic feat.

Metamagic Casting: At each level of Metacaster, the character gain a bonus spell slot to cast spells that have been modified by a metamagic feat(s). The level of the modified spell cannot exceed the class level of the metacaster. These spells are prepared as normal for the base arcane casting class.

For example, a wizard5/metacaster5 can cast 4-0th, 4-1st, 3-2nd, and 1-4th level spell (plus any bonus spells gained by virtue of a high INT score). In addition, he can cast 5 other spells of up to 5th level, as long as each has been modified by a metamagic feat.
**************************

So, is it worth trading 6 caster levels for five metamagic feats? Probably not, but it would make for a different NPC, that's certain.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I agree completely.
Which leads to the obvious conclusion, that the EK is horribly broken, since it gets full BAB, plus (effectively) more than 1 feat per level.

Simple equation (based on a subjective opinion) that proves the EK shouldn't exist.

No, it leads to the obvious conclusion that 1 feat + 2 hitpoints (just a hitpoint shy of 2 feats!) = 1 full spellcaster level.

As long as you're willing to fulfill the prerequisites of course, which are to have a caster level that is at least two levels below your character level.

 

[Spatzimaus]

No, it leads to the obvious conclusion that 1 feat + 2 hitpoints (just a hitpoint shy of 2 feats!) = 1 full spellcaster level.

Right, but it's even worse than that. Clearly, Wizard and Fighter are balanced, right? They're both core classes, after all, and people take each.
So, look at the difference in what you get every two levels:
Wizard: +2 spellcasting levels, and +0.4 Feats from a very limited list
Fighter: +6 HP, +1 BAB, +1 Feat
(Not counting weapon and armor proficiencies here. Both only get 2+INT skill points. Both have one good save.)
If there were any one Feat that gave +6 HP (double Toughness) AND a +1 boost to BAB (like Weapon Focus, but it applies to all attacks and gives iterative attacks), then it'd be fair to say one spellcasting level equalled one Feat, because both classes would get one Feat-equivalent every level.
But they don't balance; +6 HP is better than a Feat, and +1 BAB is also considerably better than a Feat. So, the Fighter is actually getting more like 4 or 5 Feat-equivalents per two levels.
Clearly, the spellcasting level must be more powerful, balancewise, something like 2 Feat-equivalents just to balance.

So now we compare the EK to the Wizard.
After 10 levels of the class, the difference:
EK: +10 HP, +1 Feat, +5 BAB
Wizard: +1 spellcasting level, +2 Feats
Not quite as lopsided as it seemed at first glance, if you realize how much difference the one spellcasting level makes. Then, to make it worse, realize that you can't wear armor if you still want to cast spells, you can't use a 2-handed weapon or sword-n-shield if you need a hand free to cast, and that while +10 HP sounds impressive it's still only a d6, so many of the differences between the EK and Wizard are wasted. We haven't even mentioned class prerequisites yet.

Better yet, compare to the Bard. The Bard has better saves than an EK, can cast in light armor, has far more skill points, a much better class skill list, gets those music and lore abilities, and STILL goes pretty far up the spellcasting tree. And yet, I haven't heard too many people scream that the Bard is overpowered lately.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Better yet, compare to the Bard. The Bard has better saves than an EK, can cast in light armor, has far more skill points, a much better class skill list, gets those music and lore abilities, and STILL goes pretty far up the spellcasting tree. And yet, I haven't heard too many people scream that the Bard is overpowered lately.

Throwing the bard in just makes the comparisons ugly - you're bringing in too many variables (ie - the potency of wizard 9th level spells vs bardic 6th level spells, the benefits of bardic music etc etc).

But I think we've proven our point.