D&D 5E Feats, don't fail me now! - feat design in 5e

Ridley's Cohort

First Post
I do not think it is important that Feats be combat only -- that degree of inflexibility is not necessary to bake into the system, but I agree it is a good philosophical starting point for Core. It is desirable to ditch any assumption in the foundation of the system that non-combat factors can balance combat factors.

IMO the main advantage of a class-based system is that you get a highly viable package deal that has easily understood strengths and weaknesses. If you really want characters that are outright bad at combat, that sounds like a non-Core class that should live in a module.
 

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I think its quite apparent at this point that some folks want something of a break-out of Combat Feats (as "Weapon Proficienceies" in 2e or classic Combat Feats in 3e and 4e) to supplement/diversify/focus PC's combat capabilities and Career Feats (as "Non-Weapon Proficienceies" in 2e or classic Non-Combat Feats in 3e and 4e) that serve as an extension of Background that round out exploration or social play.

I'm not certain that it would be terribly difficult for the designers to build "Career-Extension Feats" based off each of the Backgrounds. These could be flavor abilities (such as the various lodging abilities or rep abilities or having a lab, shop, kit, etc) as the ones built into the Backgrounds or different uses for the Background Skills (and possible moderate gains - maybe Advantage in certain scenarios...careful here though as + 1 inflation on skills will quickly perturb the bounded system's success vs DC expectations). This would allow folks to augment their Background/Career in the stead of their combat potency. I don't think it would cause too much of an issue. 4e (which is the poster child for balance adherence) had plenty of non-combat feats in the system and non-combat skill powers you could purchase. I had a character who went heavy on Skill Powers and therefore didn't optimize 100 % for combat and we were able to manage just fine (in a party of 3 played through Epic tier no less). However, if the expectations of the Encounter Balance paradigm in 5e is such that an expectation of combat feats is embedded in the system, then a clear "BUYER BEWARE" should be tagged on this mode of operation with DM advice on how to handle the disparity of combat potency (the aggregate potency of an n-party group of which said character would be a member) as it will have implications on combat encounter balance. However, somehow I doubt 5es encounter balance formula will be as tight as 4e (unfortunately) given that balance in the overarching "Adventure" is the paradigm they are building around.

@ZombieRoboNinja Unrelated, I have contrived several feat trees (specialties) for various fighting styles. Unsurprisingly, Duelist/Swashbuckler was the first one that I worked on. Your feat in the lead post is to the letter the same as one of mine. I suppose that is good news for 5e designers that their system is, at least, moderately intuitive.

Very good lead post by the way (in format and content). You do good work.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
... I want to get better as a sage. This can't possibly be a real reply, can it...?

Yes. Yes it is. For most of D&D's history, such a character is represented as an NPC, traditionally a "0-level" NPC. D&D's core design concept for the party is a group of quasi-protagonistic tomb-robbers...err...adventurers acting like a fantasy special ops team. Character Level is a generalized measure of a PC's ability to stomp on the bad guys and defy traps and other hazards. The centrality of the tomb-robbing part has varied a bit over the years, but the adventure part hasn't.

I realize that people play D&D in a wide variety of playstyles and with a wide variety of motives. However, the concept of Fantasy High-Adventure is pretty central to the design of the game. I can't think of any edition (barring Dragon articles or the near-infinite splat material) where playing a "I don't fight or contribute to fights" is an easily workable concept (maybe a wizard who refuses to cast spells?).

If you and your group are not interested in that...then, and I mean this earnestly... maybe this isn't the game you are looking for. (FATE, Burning Wheel, I'm sure there are others...) I don't suggest that lightly, either. I'd love to have a FATE group going, but AFAICT, I'm the only one in my area interested. However, if your group is interested in going that far afield of the D&D script, you might want to consider it.

If they aren't on the same schedule, then I don't think the "get another background/talent by losing specialties/feats" is an appropriate answer. And if that's not doable or appropriate, then I have an objection.
If I can't switch out my Intimidation skill for more punchyness, or my fighting skill for more knowledges, etc., then you're killing my concepts.

Okay so...You don't want to swap a combat specialty/feat for more OoC/Background stuff, but then you do? Is it just the idea they might not be called the same thing? If they are separated into Columns A and B, then adding items to Column B that say "get more from Column A" has got to be one of the easiest houserules I can think of (if it isn't core from the get go.) But then you seem to be objecting to that as "an appropriate answer"...

I think the critical thing about this is that the relative desirability of abilities between the three pillars varies a lot between campaigns/characters, making it very difficult to balance between the pillars.* However, the combat stuff is always desirable to a large portion of the audience ("my character's survival is at stake!"). Putting them both in the same pile means that many players will feel obliged to always select the maximum-value Combat choices, and ignore OoC stuff ("trap options", etc.) In this way, a lack of siloing decreases viable character concepts for a large segment of the audience, turning every character into a combat machine. (I know that's not realistic behavior for humans...but then D&D PCs are pretty far from realistic anyway.)

Because of the "survivability trump", I further think that these exchanges should be one-way. That is, you should be not be able to trade RP or Exploration abilities for increased Combat effectiveness. Doing so makes it very difficult to produce a reasonably predictable game at all.**

Also, "punchyness" ?

*For example, I, as a DM, am not terribly fond of traps, but I do love NPC interactions. I suspect my games distinctly "imbalance" the two OoC pillars of Exploration and Role-Playing. Not that anyone complains....;).

**The entirety of my thinking on this matter is predicated on the general structure and habits of D&D. Plenty of other games have structures and design goals where such siloing would be counterproductive or nonsensical, yet other games have structures and designs where entirely different siloing is effective..
 

@Ratskinner

I don't have time to comment on the above post (I couldn't really add much to it anyway) nor can I xp but this is a pretty fair and circumnavigated penetration of the issues (without being dismissive). Good stuff. Incoherent, broad game design versus focused, coherent game design is always going to be an issue with D&D as it appears that so many groups loved the focused nature of 1e and 4e while others loved the broad, drift-friendly nature of 2e (due to its lack of focus) or the broad toolkit nature of 3e.
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
Okay so...You don't want to swap a combat specialty/feat for more OoC/Background stuff, but then you do? Is it just the idea they might not be called the same thing? If they are separated into Columns A and B, then adding items to Column B that say "get more from Column A" has got to be one of the easiest houserules I can think of (if it isn't core from the get go.) But then you seem to be objecting to that as "an appropriate answer"...

Actually I think his point here was that if they ARE siloing feats into combat feats vs. noncombat traits/talents, then you should get new feats at the same rate you get new talents (maybe even at the same levels) so that it's straightforward to swap a background for an extra specialty or vice versa. Which sounds like a fair request to me.
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] - thanks for the compliments, and I hope that the fact that we two came up with the same idea ups the chances that WOTC will too! I feel like when it comes to "fighting style" specialties like these, adding extra active abilities is way more interesting that granting static bonuses. I'm still hoping they replace two-weapon defense...
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Yes. Yes it is. For most of D&D's history, such a character is represented as an NPC, traditionally a "0-level" NPC. D&D's core design concept for the party is a group of quasi-protagonistic tomb-robbers...err...adventurers acting like a fantasy special ops team. Character Level is a generalized measure of a PC's ability to stomp on the bad guys and defy traps and other hazards. The centrality of the tomb-robbing part has varied a bit over the years, but the adventure part hasn't.
This reasoning doesn't satisfy me one bit. You begin to touch on why immediately, though:
I realize that people play D&D in a wide variety of playstyles and with a wide variety of motives.
And this is exactly why. D&D 5e wants allow or support multiple play styles. That's good, in my mind. While the majority certainly doesn't need completely combat inept characters, I think that the majority would enjoy shifting the 3/3/3 balance around from time to time. Even if one person from every group does it at some point, that means that every group would be affected by that optional rule.

That's not insignificant. For groups like mine, it's a requirement. But, hey, I'm not going to switch over to it as my main game, anyways. However, I might play in it when my brother decides to run a game, or occasionally run it myself as a one-shot. To that end, having a character that isn't forced to silo his abilities is very important. And, again, it's not just important to me. If one person from every group shifts that 3/3/3 balance just once (with permission from the DM and possibly other players), it would have an effect on every group. I imagine this would be true for at least 50% of groups at some point.
However, the concept of Fantasy High-Adventure is pretty central to the design of the game. I can't think of any edition (barring Dragon articles or the near-infinite splat material) where playing a "I don't fight or contribute to fights" is an easily workable concept (maybe a wizard who refuses to cast spells?).
You know those NPCs you mentioned earlier? Sometimes people think they'd be fun to play. Sages, inventors, courtiers, etc. How many characters from Game of Thrones (or Song of Ice and Fire) look like they'd be fun to play? To me, a lot of them. Sure, they include combatants (Jon Snow, Eddard, Jaime, Bronn, Jorah), but they also include people who are certainly not combatants (the Spider, Catelyn, Daenerys, Samwell, Maester Luwin).

People play the game in different ways. I'm not asking to change the default assumption. And asking for support for people who want to change the default assumption. And I think that's reasonable, when it could be as easy as "since Feats [combat] and Talents [non-combat] run on similar tracks, just swap your Feats for Talents." That's easy, simple, and intuitive, and it's optional. The baseline is still 3/3/3.
If you and your group are not interested in that...then, and I mean this earnestly... maybe this isn't the game you are looking for. (FATE, Burning Wheel, I'm sure there are others...) I don't suggest that lightly, either. I'd love to have a FATE group going, but AFAICT, I'm the only one in my area interested. However, if your group is interested in going that far afield of the D&D script, you might want to consider it.
Like I said, I almost assuredly won't be switching to it, regardless. I still have a vested interest for when I play in it, and also for the direction that the game is taking. If they do the same thing with multiclassing that I think they should, then I might look into it.

However, trust me on this, games like Fate and Burning Wheel aren't my style. Just because I don't feel like every character should be inherently wed to all three pillars (not just combat), it doesn't mean that I enjoy more dramatist games. I don't, when it comes to fantasy games. When it comes to scratching the non-3/3/3 itch, though, as I said, we just use my RPG.
Okay so...You don't want to swap a combat specialty/feat for more OoC/Background stuff, but then you do?
I said that if they're not on the same schedule, then I'll have an objection. If they're both every level, of both every other level, etc., I'd be okay with it.
Is it just the idea they might not be called the same thing? If they are separated into Columns A and B, then adding items to Column B that say "get more from Column A" has got to be one of the easiest houserules I can think of (if it isn't core from the get go.) But then you seem to be objecting to that as "an appropriate answer"...
I'm not trying to be combative when I say this, but did you jump into this conversation and disagree with me without reading the back and forth I had? I said, rather explicitly, that I'm okay with them (combat abilities and non-combat abilities) being called different things, as long as they're on the same schedule.
I think the critical thing about this is that the relative desirability of abilities between the three pillars varies a lot between campaigns/characters, making it very difficult to balance between the pillars.*
Which is why I'm in active support of 3/3/3 being the baseline.
However, the combat stuff is always desirable to a large portion of the audience ("my character's survival is at stake!").
This is why I'm in active dissent as 3/3/3 being mandatory. In my group, the combat stuff isn't always survivable. And, yes, I know you said "to a large portion of the audience." But, the reason that I'm invested in this point, is that I'm part of a group that has the same take on it. My players have complained when getting automatic hit points at every level in 3.5. It didn't fit what they wanted from the game.

I think giving the kind of support I'm asking for should be easy enough. I really do. And it doesn't change that baseline assumption at all.
Putting them both in the same pile means that many players will feel obliged to always select the maximum-value Combat choices, and ignore OoC stuff ("trap options", etc.) In this way, a lack of siloing decreases viable character concepts for a large segment of the audience, turning every character into a combat machine. (I know that's not realistic behavior for humans...but then D&D PCs are pretty far from realistic anyway.)
If you make Feats = Combat, and Talents = Non-Combat, and they run on similar tracks, and you make an optional rule that you can switch one for the other, you've essentially made them into one pile. That's fine with me. I want that. You've basically done the same thing as labeling them "Combat Feats" and "Non-Combat Feats." Make them separated, sure. Assume that you're getting an equal number of each, sure. The baseline is 3/3/3. But, let people swap the moving parts around to fit their campaign.

I also might disagree with your use of "viable", since I'm guessing that heavily depends on the type of campaign you run.
Because of the "survivability trump", I further think that these exchanges should be one-way. That is, you should be not be able to trade RP or Exploration abilities for increased Combat effectiveness. Doing so makes it very difficult to produce a reasonably predictable game at all.
Label the option as such. Make people informed. Don't force your style, though, when it should be easy enough to allow them their own. I'm in strong support of saying "taking this will lead to these results." Awesome, that's great to include. But, I'd really rather not hear "you can't take this because it would lead to the results you're looking for." That's exactly what I don't want to see, you know?
Also, "punchyness" ?
Able to punch more/harder? No? Must be just me... As always, play what you like :)
 


JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Wouldn't this best be in a module as opposed to part of the core rules upon their release?

-O
Depends on what you mean by "best" doesn't it? It would certainly fail for my group. Having two simultaneous tracks (Feat = combat, Talents = non-combat) with an optional rule to switch out? Easy enough, in my mind. Just explain that you're upsetting expectation, maybe give some advice (or leave that to the DMG), etc. As always, play what you like :)
 

bogmad

First Post
I'm not trying to be combative when I say this, but did you jump into this conversation and disagree with me without reading the back and forth I had? I said, rather explicitly, that I'm okay with them (combat abilities and non-combat abilities) being called different things, as long as they're on the same schedule.
Thing is, I don't know that they should be on the same schedule, if by schedule you mean you get to choose one trait, and one feat at the same time. To get two choices to add at the same time creates bloat on the character sheet and perhaps too many choices at once. Perhaps you could get them at the same rate, but not on precisely the same schedule.
Personally I'm not even sure if getting them at the same rate is a necessity, but I'm open to exploring the idea.
Here's why:
Since they do interact with the rules in different manners, I'm not sure it makes sense to say 1 talent or trait is equal to one feat. You can still get the option to take a one of those in exception to a feat, but I'm not sure it would create an awful disastrous scenario for most people (as it foreseeably might for JamesonCourage's group) if they were on different schedules and at different rates. After all, if you're choosing 1 trait instead of a feat, and if you get traits at a slower rate than a feat, then that extra trait you're choosing is even more valuable.
I'm nearly positive I'll be met with disagreement on this point though. I'm open to the idea of receiving traits at the same rate as feats, but I'd want to see how it affects complexity and ease of entry to the game.
 
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bogmad

First Post
Also, to try and get this thread back on track. What would good design guidelines be for a non-combat feat?

I think it's been touched on that just a skill bonus is a little weak-sauce.
 

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