Feats Not Created Equal

[MerricB]

In general, 3E lacks any mechanical way of balancing prestige classes.

No, 3E lacks any formulaic method of balancing prestige classes. It does have mechanics that balance prestige classes.

There is no method for directly pricing class features, figuring out if a class is front-loaded, or whether it gains too much over 10 levels. I would like to see a more modular 4E, where many abilities (spell-like or not) are priced out vs. character level that they can be gained (e.g. getting Magic Missile 1/day at 1st character level is much more useful than getting it at 10th character level), giving a better system for building and balancing prestige classes.

This sort of thing already exists: see HERO and GURPS.

The trouble that such formulaic systems have is that it is incredibly easy to break the formula - or, the formula become so bland that all PCs end up similar.

Cheers!

 

[Li Shenron]

I will agree that most of the +2 to 2 skills feats can go. They can simply be consolidated under one feat called Talented and allow the player to choose the 2 skills (with the requirement that there be some underlying justifying theme between the choices).

I'm not fond of this idea, because it allows to take the feat more times and increase the same skill: Bluff+Diplomacy, Bluff+Intimidate, Bluff+SenseMotive... I think there are already enough stacking bonuses to rocket a skill bonus very high even at low levels.

 

[Psion]

I'm not fond of this idea, because it allows to take the feat more times and increase the same skill: Bluff+Diplomacy, Bluff+Intimidate, Bluff+SenseMotive... I think there are already enough stacking bonuses to rocket a skill bonus very high even at low levels.

Eh. Feats are hard enough to come by. If you want your bluff skill that high that badly that you are going to spend three feats on it, more power to you. It's really not any worse (and typically, much more characterizing/less bland) that stacking on power attack, improved crit, and two weapon fighitng to max out your damage.

 

[Buttercup]

I agree with Psion here. Then too, there really *are* savants in this world. If a player wants to create a character that is outstandingly good at one thing, at the expence of some other things, and the super talent isn't even combat related, I think that's very cool. Most of us who DM complain about power gamers. Spending multiple feats on Bluff or Sense Motive or what-have-you is the antithesis of power gaming.

Lucky me, I have one player who would do something like this for certain, and another who would at least consider it.

 

[Li Shenron]

Eh. Feats are hard enough to come by. If you want your bluff skill that high that badly that you are going to spend three feats on it, more power too you. It's really not any worse (and typically, much more characterizing/less bland) that stacking on power attack, improved crit, and two weapon fighitng to max out your damage.

I wouldn't be the one to aim at maxing out a skill, but I know some who do it I don't think in general is a good idea however to use a game mechanic to give another one. A feat to increase two related skills is ok, but I like less a feat which gives skill points to spread as you wish. I don't know why, but it just feels bad to me.

 

[Kemrain]

We also had some ideas to simplify two-weapon fighting, but that will provoke more discussion that it is worth in this thread. If someone wants me to, I will start another thread on that topic.

I'd like to see these rules. I'd like that very much.

- Kemrain the Ambidextrous.

 

[Xath]

I think some of the feats that have been termed as "weak" on the thread are useful as prerequisites for PrCs that might otherwise be overpowered.

 

[Tessarael]

I'm not fond of this idea, because it allows to take the feat more times and increase the same skill.

The current system allows you to take a skill affinity feat (e.g. Persuasive) giving +2 to a skill, and Skill Focus to give another +3. That's a maximum of +5 to a skill from feats.

My proposed changed to skill focus, capped the bonus to a maximum of +4. i.e. Yes, it could be an issue, but it is easy to write the rules to avoid this scenario. And if other DMs want to remove or increase the cap, that's not a problem.

SKILL FOCUS:
Benefit - Get 4 points to apply as an untyped bonus to any of your skills. You may spend at most 4 such points on a single skill, and you may take this feat multiple times.

 

[Tessarael]

Changing Two-Weapon Fighting

I'd like to see these rules.

Keep in mind that these proposals were highly controversial. The thread on Sean Reynolds' boards is here:
http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm7.showMessage?topicID=574.topic

The basic idea is to make fighting with two weapons work the same way as fighting with a single weapon, or weapon and shield, or a two-handed weapon. i.e. You don't get any extra attacks for fighting with two weapons. The trade-off between the styles is essentially the following:
(a) fighting with a single weapon (inferior for offense and defense)
(b) fighting with weapon and shield, better than (a) for defense
(c) fighting with a two-handed weapon, better than (a) for offense
(d) fighting with two weapons, somewhere between (b) and (c) - i.e. better offense, but not as good as (c), and better defense, but not as good as (b)

Now let me get into the details ...

Remove the following feats
==========================
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting

Rules changes
============
When wielding two weapons:
1. Wielding two weapons does not give any extra attacks, nor does it give an attack penalty.
2. Pick either weapon as your primary weapon. (With that weapon you get the same number of attacks and do the same damage as if you were wielding only that weapon single-handed.)
3. You get a +1 dodge bonus to AC as you can defend better.
4. You may use your secondary weapon to provide other non-attack benefits (e.g. the Defending property).

New feats
=========
Two-Weapon Style
Prerequisities: Dex 15
Benefit:
(a) You gain +1 dodge bonus to AC when wielding two weapons. (As with other dodge bonuses, this stacks with the +1 dodge bonus to AC for wielding two weapons).
(b) When wielding two weapons, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Bluff checks when feinting in combat.
(c) When wielding two weapons, you gain a +4 (untyped) bonus on attempts to disarm your opponent. (However, there is no benefit when an opponent attempts to disarm you.)